When Ronald Weinland first emerged on the scene sometime around early 2008, he was certainly a candidate for a prophet or witness. Although some of his biblical doctrine was rather different and unorthodox, he was a calm, mild-mannered man who spoke with a firm, unwavering confidence in his predictions. He was a biblical scholar who had authored several works. Although his beliefs on the Sabbath and tithing were certainly in the minority, he was no Jim Jones or wild-eyed fanatic. A rather quiet man with an unimposing nature, Weinland was a candidate for a prophet of God or one of the final witnesses foretold of in Revelation.
As a Christian who believes the Bible and knows the end of the world draws near, I filed Weinland away for future reference. God says to test the prophets, and by the fulfillment of their words we will know the measure of them.
God says this for a reason. For decades, if not centuries, men have risen claiming to be prophets or the final witnesses. Any man can make a claim to God’s spokesman. Although the followers of God are sometimes given gifts of discernment, prophesy, visions or tongues, God keeps the test simple; if their prophesies come to pass, they are confirmed as God’s spokesman and can be trusted.
The Weinland Witness was created in early 2008 to counter what was perceived as a vitriolic anti-Weinland fever sweeping the blogosphere. Even though there was no particular commitment to Weinland, it was clear that there was a sore need for rational discussion of R.W. and the larger topic of proclaimed prophets in today’s contemporary society. I’m not a writer, and have never created a blog before. There was no inherent desire on my part to undertake this project.
I created The Weinland Witness more out of a feeling of duty or sense of obligation than anything else. Any claim to prophethood must be taken seriously. The Bible is no laughing matter. Everything within it will come to pass, and all the words written in the Book must be considered weightily before coming to any hasty conclusions.
RW had several factors in his favor. In addition to the aforementioned civil and calm disposition, he offered his writings for free, manifested a supreme confidence, and had a firm, if sometimes unusual grasp of scripture. But that alone does not a prophet make. In all things, we must first be loyal to the One, to the Source of all power. Everything else comes afterwards. My allegiance is to God first, and man second.
When R. Weinland pre-emptively stated that he had possibly been ‘presumptuous’ and did not foresee the level of destruction occurring at the predicted time, I experienced a testing of the faith. On one hand, God’s word dictates fulfillment of prophesy as a necessary prerequisite to verification of prophethood. On the other hand, in matters of biblical prophesy one can never leave any uncertainty on the table – I could not 100% discount the possibility that RW was indeed a true prophet of God. Whether or not Weinland was a true prophet, God was asking more patience.
And so it was that I returned to my studies and let the passage of time determine Ronald Weinland’s validity. According to RW, the First Trumpet began on December 15th instead of in April. This brings us to where we stand today.
As of today, March 23rd, we have witnessed no mass deaths. There have been no events of truly large destruction. We have not seen the annihilation prophesied by Ronald Weinland. The First Trumpet has been blown, and yet we have not seen verification of Weinland’s words, a key requirement for true prophethood.
A theoretical shifting of prophesied events is certainly plausible, although such incidences occurring in the Bible are rare. God has many reasons for his actions – from teaching mankind lessons to using mankind for powerful testimonies. However, it now appears as if everything Ronald Weinland said was incorrect, from the timing of the First Trumpet to the actual nature of the Trumpet itself. I simply cannot accept that a prophet of God would utter such a vast pronouncement that had no basis in fact whatsoever. Regardless of whether God granted more time, or is trying to teach a lesson, it appears inconceivable that he would allow a representative of his to utter such a sweeping prediction that did not come true in any aspect or form. The God of the Bible would not do that, and one must remain true to him first – man comes second.
The Weinland Witness Statement of Discernment remains. Ronald Weinland’s time has come and gone. He is a false prophet. False prophets come and go, but God’s word remains. His word is the same today, yesterday and forever.
As has been said many times here, regardless of Weinland’s validity, the fact remains that we are in the End Times spoken of in Revelation. God is returning soon in all his glory to build his Kingdom on Earth. Do not allow false prophets to taint your biblical perspective or your faith, as that is precisely the goal of Satan and his designs. The Truth remains in all its constant glory. The two witnesses prophesied in Revelation will emerge, and we must remain vigilant for their introduction.
The Weinland Witness’ comment policy remains. Although I have now made a clear decision regarding Ronald Weinland’s validity, there are still many who remain unconvinced. My hope is that The Weinland Witness will provide a forum for discussion among them so that they may eventually see the light. It will remain open to Weinland-supporters and undecideds. Unfortunately, I cannot allow virulent anti-Weinlanders access because, as has happened so often in the past, the discussion degenerates into namecalling, insults flung back and forth, and an overall tone of incivility. This would not be conducive to the path I feel Weinland followers should take, which is one of gradual recognizance and acceptance of the Truth.
To those followers, I can empathize with you. You were with me from the beginning. I know that many of you simply share my hope that Jesus will return soon and that the words in the Bible be fulfilled. We want the same things. I do not condemn you. You know my heart. Unlike some, I have never had an agenda or pre-desired outcome. My decision was not made lightly, but only arrived at after much soul-searching and contemplation of biblical standards. Through this journey, I have come to understand your minds and know that you will not be convinced by angry retorts or snide remarks, nor do I expect you to. All that I ask is that you remain openminded. Put God’s Word first, and man second. Make sure your spirit is firstly aligned with the Word – then pledge allegiance to man.
“I know that many of you simply share my hope that Jesus will return and that the words in the Bible be fulfilled.”
Amen to that . . . .
Well it is plain to see that more than the second Trumpet will have to blow before people will finally realize how God is working in these end times . Most will not until the 5th trumpet sounds and we are conquered by Assyria .Which is exactly what Ronald Weinland has warned . Even people asking when will God arrive in disbelief of what is being warned falls into prophesy . So even this is prophetic and very exiting when God gives understanding of what is happening .
I actually have been reading posts here a long time before I even reached out to anyone here . I reached out because I knew there were called people here that had understanding of the 50 truths of God . We are scattered so when I realized there were like minded people here I had to reach out to them . Those of us who are scattered through the world ,all have been given understanding of the same thing . No matter how far we are from each other .HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE IF NOT GOD GIVE IT TO US !!
While I think that in the beginning this was a good forum to bring God’s people together . I can not personally be part of a forum that has decided Ronald Weinland is a false prophet .
The website has everything needed to convince those that have been called into the truth . So if the 50 truths are not enough to convince people of who Mr.Weinland is than my prayers are with you and God speed the day you are given understanding of them .
My hope for you all is sincere . God’s plan will come to pass as Ronald Weinland has written in the last book 2008 God’s Final Witness .
Mr.Weinland has said many times that there is no sense trying to argue this with anyone if they are not given understanding of God’s truth , so respectively I wish everyone health and safety while we all have it and that some have not taken this to far and committed the unpardonable sin .
Godbless
On 3/6 Mr. Weinland made a post on http://www.ronaldweinland.com/ stating the following:
“Many do not “get it” concerning the title of the last book that was published. It is 2008 – God’s Final Witness. That was the final and the last year for a witness to be given to mankind at the end of 6,000 years of man’s self-rule. At the end of 2008, the final 3 1/2 years commenced. Mankind has already received his last warning and it was God’s final witness.”
And also stated:
“We now find ourselves three months into that final 3 1/2 year period of time, but thank God that these massive powers of end-time destruction have not yet been unleashed. The kind of suffering that will finally come to pass is horrific beyond comprehension. God is being merciful by temporarily holding back the day when the Second Trumpet sounds and massive physical destruction begins. As always, it needs to be understood that God is not bringing that destruction upon mankind, but mankind is bringing it upon himself (it will be caused by man). God is now holding back that time of massive physical destruction by not allowing man to start this process for a few more months.
This “holding back” is in large part due to the result of God answering the prayers of His people who set aside a time of fasting, similar to that of Esther, whose results are remembered to this day in what is called the Feast of Purim.
On January 31, the Church of God entered a prolonged fast (a fast that lasts beyond the normal one day), and God’s people petitioned God, humbling themselves in the process, seeking that God would humble more people, and thereby deliver many more than He initially revealed would be saved. This is all the result of God’s will and His purpose that is being worked out for this world, and although God has granted to offer mercy to more people in this end-time by bringing more to humility, the choice of repentance is still in the hands of those whom God humbles and grants mercy. It is sad that there will be many who will still refuse God’s mercy and His offer to save them physically through this final end-time.”
Which prompted my question on the earlier post about Christ returning on Pentecost of 2012 – but the period of actual suffering leading to that date being held back for a period of time (effectively shortening it) so that more may come to repentence. I wanted to make sure I was understanding this correctly.
I asked if my understanding was correct and I was told I don’t get it.
But that’s what he said . . .
OK – so how am I not ‘getting it?’
Maritimes Canada,
A-men
Truthseeker, So Thankful, Maritimes Canada, and others I do not know,
I join in silence to this blog that calls Ron Weinland false, which claims to have studied, but has not listened to Ron’s sermons. Stating that Ron started in the beginning of 2008 is the beginning proof of falsehoods that are brought about by un-knowledgeable people.
As I was brought directly by God to the church’s web sites, all others will, too. I will no longer look here to “help” others find the right way.
We will join together in the future, no matter how separate we are now. I look forward to it!
I’ve actually looked forward to reading the things you all had to say here. The conversations do make sense to me.
During my time as a member of the WCG – we were told by our leadership that God will draw people to Him – and certainly, folks did come. But to be honest, it wasn’t solely the sermons nor the literature that kept me there. It was the relationships I’d developed with other members of the congregation as well. It was talking with them and processing information with them, going to Spokesman’s Club with them, and breaking bread with them that was just as big a part of my WCG life as the words of Mr. Weinland, the Elders, the Ministers at the Feasts, the tapes we listened to, the writing of Mr. Armstrong – etc.
God draws people through people too.
How does the Word get spread without a messenger? Some of you folks on here have been messengers to me. Sometimes it makes more sense to hear how a “lay member” understands something as it is more ‘real’ in the sense that their language can be more easily relatable to ‘everyday’ folks. I’ve read all the books that have been mentioned in previous posts (Mr. Armstrong’s works and Mr. Weinland’s) and that gives me a basis of understanding for many things discussed – but I want to hear things not just from Mr. Weinland – but from the folks that follow him as well.
It’s odd – a decade after the shattering of the WCG, one of my cousins came to me and said ‘I’ve been looking into (this and this and this – regarding the sabbath and Holy Days) and the stuff you said to me back in the 90’s is right.’ Not me – but quite possibly God planting a seed through me.
The people that come to this particular blog at least have some kind of interest in Mr. Weinland. To flatly state you have no responsibility in speaking to others to help them understand pretty much amounts to a cop-out. Tithing and fasting and praying and showing up are all important – sure – but there’s more to it than that . . .
I bookmarked the COG – PKG site a while ago and will continue to read / listen . . . .
Hi Maritimes Canada & think-differently,
I agree totally!
That is probably why this amazing thing just happened to me two days ago. Please contact me on southafrica2009@hotmail.com so I can tell you about it.
It is a knew email account just set up so we can make contact, not my usual one.
Hope to hear from you both!
Hi rlee64,
I am not sure if I am right, but I feel that God will not want me to hang around a site where it is stated by the organiser that Mr Weinland is a false prophet….I am young in God’s church, only an embreyo, but I must follow my conviction.
I think that if God wants to work through one of us, he would. It is not for us to decide we are going to help someone see the truth, because as you know we cannot. If God is calling that person, they will be led to the COG-PKG website just like all of us.
Take care!
For those of you who know the truth, can you see how blessed you are? For me, I am yet humbled even more.
Can one even put a price on a sound mind? A mind that is a peace with it’s maker?
God knows exactly what it will take to humble man and is in complete control of the timing.
I did not frequent this forum much recently because I know that only God calls those and reveals his truth to the mind. Once they are called then they can be discipled. As the saying goes “a mind conviced against it’s will is of the same opinion still”.
Farewell, and thanks to Citizen X for allowing my occasional posts.
Citizen X – You have spoken wisely and with integrity. And for the true believers, I pray for you that your eyes will be opened to the clear meaning of the events which have unfolded. For those on the fense, try googling Al Mohler for more of a traditional biblical perspective…
This site was always set up as a “what if” “maybe” “could it be true” place. It never was a PRO Weinland blog, nor was it ANTI-Weinland. It just so happened that it turned more into a place where the PKG brethren could come and speak their mind. It leaned towards the “he could be true” side. The blog owner went through the motions to try to defend Weinland, gave him the benefit of the doubt many many times! He tested this man more than any of the contributors have. He is now demonized because he took scripture, discerned it, and found Weinland without scriptural support. I haven’t heard ONE rebuttal from ANY Weinland congregant as to proof that Weinland is a prophet.
Citizen X says there is no evidence. You all say there is. The burden of proof is on you who say Weinland is a prophet.
Here’s some facts:
The economy is picking up.
Stocks were up 500 points yesterday.
Housing starts are up.
Unemployment is lower than expected.
92% of Americans are working (MUCH better than the early 80s).
We are nearing the second quarter of *2009*. If God’s last witness was in 2008 with a book and a couple of radio interviews, then God has a lot of explaining to do. The truth is, Weinland wasn’t a prophet, wasn’t a witness, and definitely wasn’t a spokesman for God.
Reading Citizen X’s last posting, I feel I have broadly travelled the same road these past months.
I feel very aware from Scripture that we are in end times, and can see the signs all around whenever I look at the news. Whatever people say to the contrary about end times, the world and mankind has NEVER before been this close to the edge of a precipice.
Also I am aware of the information God has put in His Word about His salvation plan for mankind and the earth. I have no doubt that the 7th day Sabbath and the 7 festivals of Leviticus 23 (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost,Trumpets,Atonement,Tabernacles), are an amazing picture of God’s 7000 year salvation plan.
When Ronald Weinland came to my attention about a year ago, I felt I could not ignore someone who could make the bold claim that he was one of the Biblical end-time witnesses. I ordered both his books and started to listen to the Sabbath services.
I have since listened to every sermon, some of them two or three times over, as well as listening to many of the sermons going back to 2001. To get more background on the WCG, I also read Herbert W. Armstrong’s ‘Mystery of the Ages’ as well as other HWA material.
I found RW to be a very persuasive speaker with an apparently cohesive interpretation of Scripture, although with some unusual ’insights’ or, as he calls them, ‘truths’. He claims, for example, that the virtually unknown Joseph Tkach senior was the man of sin spoken of in 2Thess2:3.
Even the failure of the first set of prophetic dates appeared to be explained with the revealing of the so-called ‘50th truth’, that Trumpets of 2008 to Pentecost of 2012 was the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12, and that Christ will therefore return on May 27th 2012. This seemed a remarkably exciting numerical fit and very much kept me listening to the sermons.
There is no doubt in my mind about RW’s sincerity. That he really believes he is who he says is abundantly clear.
—————————————————————————
I eventually decided to contact Church of God PKG to express agreement with RW’s interpretation of the 7000 year plan of God revealed in the 7th day Sabbath and the Leviticus Festivals, and the rapidly approaching ‘end of the age’.
I received a reply in which I was strongly advised to ‘flee’ from my current church, implying I was in some kind of danger. I later heard Ronald Weinland claim in one of his interviews that ‘the Mark of the Beast’ of Rev 19:20 is on those who carry out Sunday Worship.
I realised the seeds that RW was sowing in my mind was that, because I was not actively keeping the Sabbath and the other Old Testament festivals, I was actually worshiping some kind of satanic false Jesus. I found that the heart was going out of my worship at my church and also my relationships with my Christian brothers and sisters in my ‘traditional church’ were adversely changing.
I felt something wrong in my spirit and an uncomfortable weight. My joy and freedom in Christ was being removed and being replaced by the feeling that my salvation depended on keeping the Sabbath and the other Old Testament Festivals.
If RW was right, didn’t this mean that great men of faith such as Charles and John Wesley, George Mueller, Charles Spurgeon, Oswald Chambers, Billy Graham, Smith Wigglesworth, George Whitfield and others were not even sure of their salvation ?
I prayed to God to reveal the truth about this end time ‘prophet’and that, if my relationship with Jesus Christ was wrong for God to make this clear.
I believe God directed me to the Book of Galations, where the Apostle Paul was dealing directly with the DANGER of trying to add elements of Old Testament law to faith in what Christ has done for us on the cross (as if faith in Christ is not all-sufficient). Quoting the Apostle Paul:-
(Gal 3:1,2) You stupid Galatians! I told you exactly how Jesus Christ was nailed to a cross. Has someone now put an evil spell on you?
I want to know only one thing. How were you given God’s Spirit? Was it by obeying the Law of Moses or by hearing about Christ and having faith in him?
I began to focus on other Scriptures which make it clear that Jesus Christ is the FULFILLMENT of everything the Old Testament was POINTING TO. The Old Testament is effectively a tutor which leads mankind to the reality of Christ as our Redeemer. When we have Christ in our lives, we no longer need the tutor. Again, quoting the Apostle Paul:-
(Gal 3:24-26) So that the law has been our tutor up to Christ, that we might be justified on the principle of FAITH.
But, faith having come, we are no longer under a tutor;
for you are all God’s sons BY FAITH in Christ Jesus.
The Sabbath and the Festivals are shadows which point us to the reality of Christ, as the Apostle Paul makes clear (any other interpretation I believe is a twisting of Scripture).
(Col 2:16-17) Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.
These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts the shadow belongs to Christ.
Regarding the ‘50th truth’, I have come across a website from 10 years ago that also noticed there is a 1335 day numerical relationship between the Festival of trumpets of one year and Pentecost of another year. However, it is not a unique relationship and the website gives examples of how this occurs a number of times over the space of just a few years. So this relationship may well be true for the coming of Christ sometime in the future, but is not necessarily the one that Ron Weinland has highlighted.
Having come to a conclusion on RW, I feel a burden has lifted in my spirit. I can once again embrace my Christian brothers and sisters and put my whole heart back into worshipping the Coming King along with them.
RW is fond of the expression ‘They just don’t get it’. In fact, surely it is RW who ‘does not get it’, not the rest of us, who put our whole trust in the shed blood of Christ and the sealing of the Holy Spirit for our salvation.
The conclusion drawn from this forum surely has to be correct. Purely on an objective basis, there are now several failed prophecies both from his interviews and from the book ‘2008 God’s Final Witness’. All the radio interviews he has given, rather than endorse him as God’s prophet, must by now have made it clear to every listener that he is false.
Not only that, I now believe his teachings could be a dangerous diversion away from the all-sufficiency of saving faith in Jesus’s sacrifice for our sins on the cross. As Scripture warns us:-
(Mat 7:15) But beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but within are ravening wolves.
(Mat 24:11) and many false prophets shall arise and shall mislead many;
Undoubtably, RW has been inspired to write his books and deliver his sermons and unquestionably he is sincere, but inspired from what source ?
If I was an innocent man accused of a crime I did not commit, I would be very lucky if I was to be tried in the court of a judge with the fairness exhibited by Citizen X. Judge X has maintained fair and firm control of the entire courtroom, expelling those who were disturbing the proceedings even if from the Weinland side of the gallery.
Any person who says Citizen X did not give Ronald Weinland a fair trial, is blind.
I don’t have to repeat the finding of the court, but I will repeat a closing comment:
Do not allow false prophets to taint your biblical perspective or your faith, as that is precisely the goal of Satan and his designs.
Mal
Having come to a conclusion on RW, I feel a burden has lifted in my spirit.
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. – Gal 5:1
And to all who think they need a preacher to understand the Word of God:
I write this to you about those would deceive you; but the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.
– 1 John 2:26-27
Read the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is a kind and gentle teacher, without price. Free of charge.
Sis Terri said:
“…I join in silence to this blog that calls Ron Weinland false, which claims to have studied, but has not listened to Ron’s sermons….”
I have listened to Ronald Weinland’s words.
A prophet who represents God would take the greatest care to ensure that his words were chosen carefully. He would only say the words God had given him, and if he prophesied in the name of God, that prophesy would come true.
Ronald Weinland’s initial prediction of the First Trumpet blowing on April 17th did not come to pass. He said it was because God had changed the timing. Ok. Fine.
However, his second prediction of the First Trumpet blowing on December 14th has also not come to pass. Sis Terri, you say that I have not listened to his sermons – have you listened to his words? God would not allow his prophet to make two prophecies that did not come to pass. Show me an instance in the Bible where that has ever occurred.
When Jonah went to Nineveh, and warned the people there of their iniquities, everyone repented. Not a handful, not God’s flock – everyone. That is one of the only times that God has changed a prophecy out of mercy.
When a man claims to have a message from God, I will take his words seriously. And yet the words Ronald Weinland says have not been fulfilled. We have no external evidence to validate his claim. All we have are his words. I can only listen to a prophet for so long before I must see God validate him in the eyes of all. That is the way he works, and has worked since the dawn of time. God makes his prophets known.
I have listened to Ronald Weinland’s words and found them lacking. There is no validation from God for Ronald Weinland. There is no sign. God says to test the prophets. Many would have declared him false when there was no evidence of the First Trumpet on July 17th. However, I allowed the possibility that God was testing the faith. And yet his second prediction did not come true as well.
Nothing in his sermons could change the words he has uttered. He has represented himself as a prophet of God – and prophets’ words are important. They do not make two incorrect predictions.
I’m sorry, but he is not a prophet of the God in my Bible. Perhaps some other God, but not God, the Father of Jesus, the Creator of mankind. Not the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of David and Solomon – Ronald Weinland is not a prophet of that God.
Sis Terri said:
“…Stating that Ron started in the beginning of 2008 is the beginning proof of falsehoods that are brought about by un-knowledgeable people…”
The name of his book was “2008-Gods Final Witness”. On the numerous radio shows he did, he said his ministry began in 2008. I am not sure why you wish to quibble on a seemingly unimportant point, as all I said was that he ‘emerged on the scene’ around early 2008. Indeed, that was when I and many others heard of him.
Sis Terri, I feel for you, but I must remain true to my conscience. You say you are loyal to God, but are you? The only reason I say Ron Weinland is false is because I wish to remain true to God. I would not want to pledge allegiance to a man who is not blessed by God. I would not want to risk the wrath of God by endorsing an impostor. I have no choice in this matter.
Logic, facts and my conscience tell me that he is not of God. His words reveal that.
I have not put words in Weinland’s mouth. If I have, feel free to point out where I have. I have not misrepresented his position. If I have, let me know. I have not done anything but judge Ronald Weinland’s representation of himself. He has proven himself illegitimate by his own actions.
Although God allows men to speak for him, eventually it is clear whether or not God supports a prophet. Remember when Elijah the Prophet called down fire from heaven – that was God saying “This is my sign. Elijah speaks for me.” He was showing the people that Elijah was for real. That is what God does, and he has not done that with RW.
All we have are RW’s words. He can change one prediction and say it is God’s will, but where is the external confirmation? The way he is going, he could change all his prophecies and say it is God’s will. We need external confirmation. The Bible warns us to be careful of being led away from God – I hope that does not happen to you, Sis Terri. Put God first, and man second.
Citizen X
You are wrong when you say that Ron Weinland says, in reference to the initial change in timing, that God changed the timing. Ron has not said that at all. He admits that he (Ron) misunderstood the timing because of a belief that the Church of God had traditionally held that Christ would return on Triumpets which, taking into consideration what God had revealed to him about 2008 being the year of a final witness, led Ron to a wrong conclusion that the 3 1/2 years began on April 14th 2008. God corrected the Church by revealing that Christ would return on Pentecost (50th Truth) hence the timeline was corrected. The first trumpet did blow on Dec. 14th 2008. This has not been changed. Ron has not yet been given specifics about what happens as a result of it blowing but it is a process that happens over time, unlike the 2nd and 3rd trumpets which will be immediate. The second trumpet has not been blown yet. It may very well have been delayed for a time in answer to the time of prayer and fasting (Jan 31st and Feb 1st) by the Church for this very thing, so that more people can be brought to repentance and live into the Millennium.
I appreciate that your desire is to follow God and certainly if Ron Weinland is a false prophet you should not aid him in any way. Please be sure that all your facts and understanding are correct before you conclude that though. Remember that Revelation makes it clear that the two witnesses will be rejected for the most part by the world, just as Jesus and every prophet God has sent has been. Sis Terri is right. There is much you could learn by listening to the sermons.
Charity – Citizen X said specifically that he listened to the sermons. I have listened to the 50th Truth sermon. It was a tedious confusing mess that I had to listen to twice to try to catch the tortured reasoning. Prophets who are called-by-God prophets don’t misunderstand God. That is called presumptuousness to interject your assumptions about what God was doing. He even said he would quit preaching if he was wrong. That is also presumptuous and over confidence.
To most people who have heard the sermon, it is unconvincing. It is unconvincing in the way 2 plus 2 does not equal 5. It will never equal 5, even if RW says it does.
Citizen X,
Well said.
Charity,
I listened to the sermon where Mr. Weinland said God gave him the timing and he just relayed what was given to him. Since then he has stated what you shared, but that’s not what he originally said.
When you listen closely to his sermons of the past year, his initial explanations of why his predictions didn’t come to pass changed as time went on, but you can’t unsay what you already said.
Citizen X has made some excellent points, and shown remarkable integrity in allowing logic, facts and his conscience to guide him in testing Mr. Weinland’s claim of being a prophet of God, even though he had so patiently given him the benefit of the doubt.
sojourner
You said:
“I have listened to the 50th Truth sermon. It was a tedious confusing mess that I had to listen to twice to try to catch the tortured reasoning.”
“To most people who have heard the sermon, it is unconvincing. It is unconvincing in the way 2 plus 2 does not equal 5. It will never equal 5, even if RW says it does.”
………………………………………………………………………………….
I do not agree. I found the “50th truth” sermon extremely convincing, coherent and highly plausible. I listened to that particular sermon a number of times and became more convinced by it each time.
After the collapse of his initial prophesied dates, this sermon was highly effective in restoring faith in him as God’s prophet. The numerical fit of 1335 days between Trumpets 2008 and Pentecost 2012 and 280 days (40 x7) between Christmas 2007 and Trumpets 2008 appeared to me, and I’m sure many others, that God had put the final piece of the jigsaw in place and rubber stamped His authority on RW.
I feel this is the major problem, and what makes RW’s ministry such a dangerous deception. RW’s books and his preaching do come across as highly coherent, plausible and inspired. When people are deceived, by definition they don’t realise they are deceived. The very fact that this deception is so coherent and persuasive suggests to me that it is demonically influenced.
As Jack said on his post:
“Do not allow false prophets to taint your biblical perspective or your faith, as that is precisely the goal of Satan and his designs.”
I believe God freed me from the spell of RW by directing me to all the clear Scriptures about the saving grace of Jesus Christ alone, that I have periodically posted on this blog.
One of the best parts of the Bible to read is the Book of Galations in which the Apostle Paul specifically warns of the DANGER of mixing Old Testament law with New Testament faith and freedom in Christ. I would encourage those who are still convinced by RW to read it.
Hello Charity,
You said:
He admits that he (Ron) misunderstood the timing because of a belief that the Church of God had traditionally held that Christ would return on Triumpets
taking into consideration what God had revealed to him about 2008 being the year of a final witness, led Ron to a wrong conclusion that the 3 1/2 years began on April 14th 2008.
You speak of ‘beliefs’ and ‘conclusions’ when speaking of how Ronald Weinland arrived at his words.
That is not how God works through a prophet. He doesn’t just allow them to predict whatever they ‘believe’ will happen – he gives them a specific message with specific facts. It comes from God. Not the prophet. Not the prophet’s beliefs, or conclusions. Prophecy comes from God.
I’m actually rather surprised that you corrected me, only to say that Ronald Weinland prophesied something that was not of God. Why is he predicting a certain time when God has not given him that time? Why is he passing off his own understanding as if they are God’s words? A true prophet would never do that. The responsibility is simply too great.
A prophet knows the awesome responsibility he has, and how people will take his words very seriously. And yet, Ron Weinland, while declaring himself a prophet, stated his own opinions as if they were prophecy from God?
You also said:
“…the timeline was corrected…”
The timeline never should have had to be corrected. Never in biblical history have I heard of a true prophet of God throwing in some of his own opinions into the mix. Never. Elijah didn’t add his own flavor to the prophecies God gave him. Neither did Jeremiah. Or Jonah. They never deviated from the message God gave them.
“…The first trumpet did blow on Dec. 14th 2008…”
I have listened to Ron Weinland describe the characteristics of the First Trumpet many times. He repeatedly said it was a process that unfolded over 45-90 days. That’s it. 90 days from December 14th is March 14th. We have not seen the evidence of the First Trumpet. According to RW’s own description of the First Trumpet, he would be false. He said it was a process that unfolded over 45-90 days, and we have seen no evidence of that process. I have to declare him false.
“…Ron has not yet been given specifics about what happens as a result of it blowing…”
Yes, he has! He’s written it in his book, “2008 – Gods Final Witness”. He’s described the First Trumpet in detail. He’s talked about it in sermons, on radio shows. He’s repeatedly said it is a process that unfolds over 45-90 days. By those words that he himself has uttered, RW can be nothing else than a false prophet. There are no other possibilities, as much as I gave him the benefit of the doubt. He painted himself into this corner, but that’s what happens when you make a claim like that and utter such specific predictions.
If you say then that the actual nature and characteristics of the First Trumpet have changed, then that would mean RW’s original words describing it were false too. Do you see what kind of conundrums we are facing?
“…Please be sure that all your facts and understanding are correct before you conclude that though. There is much you could learn by listening to the sermons…”
Again, I have listened to the sermons. However, I have also listened to the entire breadth of the predictions RW has made. You are basically saying to me, “Yes, he said those things originally, but you need to hear the updated version…”
I’m not simply going to forget what he said. Words matter. You shouldn’t expect me to just forget the predictions he made and the prophecies he made. I hold him to those, just like you should. People of integrity should value their word, and right now it is looking very much like RW’s word has been quite devalued.
To All,
I read, but rarely blog this site. Please bear with me for a couple topics. . .
Can no one see the way the economy is?? How many of you are out of a job right now? How many of you have lost 30% of your 401K’s? Is your money more protected than mine? The collapse of the US economy will not happen overnight. (although we CAN print another Billion $$ overnight – Oh, THAT can’t hurt anything can it?) Did the Great Depression happen overnight? Really, what has happened in the past 45-90 days?? Nothing? Are you blind or just in a dream world?
Can -I- have your money?
2nd A number of you pick random quotations from the Bible and then state them to make your points. . .but you take them out of context. Why don’t you just quote Shakespear?
3rd, and this may get me deleted:
Citixen X Tell the Truth to Us, I have read on another (anti-Weinland) website that you post all the time under another name. This makes me suspicious that you have set us all up, and taken us down with the full intent of pulling the rug out and making a (STILL TOO SOON) erroneous judgement of RW.
As you have said, as well as fellow bloggers, TIME IS THE TEST.
For me, I am behind the man that is led by God.
Nonnie – What is the context of the prophet who speaks presumptuously, that is assuming what God meant?
Citizen X
I agree with you that prophesy comes from God. What you fail to take into account is that just because a person is a prophet does not mean that everything he says is of a prophetic nature, a “thus saith the Lord” pronouncement. Prophets have opinions and beliefs. They are just as human as the rest of us. They simply have been given a job to do. The two books that Ron wrote are messages from God. Ron knew that 2008 was God’s final witness before the final 31/2 years began. This was given by God and thus prophetic. Ron believed that Christ would come on Trumpets. He concluded that April 14th was the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years. Wrong conclusion but the prophetic part still held. Once the 50th Truth was given (prophetic) and it was understood that Christ would return on Pentecost the timeline was understood. It was never changed as far as God was concerned. It simply had not yet been revealed for whatever reasons. Now that it has been revealed by God it is prophetic and will not change.
It is easy to read scripture and see how everything the prophets have said have been or will be fullfilled. Hindsight is 20 – 20. You need to realize though that Jonah’s message to the people of Nineveh was “Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Nothing was said about any chance of it not happening. To those people of that day, Jonah would have seemed like a false prophet because what he said did not happen! Why do you think he wanted to die? God changed His mind when the people prayed and fasted. (God knew that would happen but He still required Jonah to prophesy and Jonah was humiliated and very upset with God because of it) God’s people have prayed that the trumpets be delayed. Is it not possible that God has heard and answered? Could this be why the time between the first and second trumpets has gone past 90 days? No one in the Church expected anything to happen by March 14th because we believed that God heard us and answered us. If that means being humiliated, so be it. Humbling is good for us and the lives of people are much more important than our pride just like the Ninevites were more important to God than Jonah’s pride. As in the case of Jonah’s prophesy only the timing has changed (eventually Nineveh was overthrown) and everything that has been prophesied will occur. Most people will not repent or believe even when it does. This will be no surprise to God. He is faithful and merciful and will hear the cries of all who will call out to Him in true repentance.
Nonnie
With respect, what is happening to the economy does not make Ronald Weinland God’s prophet.
However, several predictions from his book have now either failed or else have not yet happened.
I submit the following quotes from 2008 God’s Final Witness(noting that the Seventh Seal was supposedly opened on November 14th 2008):
P115
BEFORE THE SEVENTH SEAL IS OPENED, the seven thunders will become SO PRONOUNCED that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth. PROPHECY FAILED – NO PARTICULAR ESCALATION IN WEINLAND’S THUNDERS (WITH EXCEPTION OF ECONOMIC UPHEAVAL).
NOTE: Most notable failure is the fifth thunder (P101) comprised of three parts:
i) marked increase in death within the leadership of Church of God that was scattered. PROPHECY FAILED
ii) Sudden escalation of death of notable people in the world. PROPHECY FAILED
iii) sudden escalation of death in the world from plagues. PROPHECY FAILED
P116
Also by this moment in time(opening of Seventh seal), there will be a strong, rapidly growing recognition within the United States that I am who I say I am. PROPHECY FAILED – WEINLAND STILL ESSENTIALLY UNKNOWN
P117/P118
The first powerful event of the Seventh Seal will result in wide-spread destruction over the United States and beyond her border into Canada……there will be much death when this event occurs. Most of it will be the death of animals and birds, but also a large number of people will die – into the tens of thousands. PROPHECY NOT FULFILLED
Book of Revelation Ch 11 vs 3
And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. NOT FULFILLED – LAURA WEINLAND, THE SUPPOSED SECOND WITNESS, HAS BEEN TOTALLY SILENT
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As has been repeatedly asked on this blog, HOW MANY FAILURES IS A PROPHET OF GOD ALLOWED ?
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As a further point, as I understand it, the prayer and fasting undertaken by Church of God PKG at end of January was for God to INCREASE THE THUNDERS.
So far, there is no indication that God has answered.
Mal
You wrote
“One of the best parts of the Bible to read is the Book of Galations in which the Apostle Paul specifically warns of the DANGER of mixing Old Testament law with New Testament faith and freedom in Christ. I would encourage those who are still convinced by RW to read it’
Wether Ronald Weinland is a prophet or not has no effect on wether we should could keep the Law. The Bible over and over again shows that God’s Law is holy and good and no part of the Bible (inculding Pauls letters) never says we should not keep God’s Holy Law.
I’m glad everyone here has their proof.
My first proof came from the Truth. I sought the Truth, before anything else in my life. And God gave it to me. He showed me many things like the myths about Heaven and Hell, the falseness of the Trinity, who is the current ruler of the world and age, the truth about Baptism, and many more to eventually He showed me the truth about His Sabbaths and Feasts (or Appointed Times). I was determined to know God’s true end-time Prophet by knowing the True God and the True Son. This is why the Church of God-PKG is the only Church that keeps the Passover on the right day and knows what is the only sign that Jesus left and remembers it as well as all the other appointed times and God’s Sabbath and does not keep the Satanic holidays or has gone away from the trunk of the Tree.
My second proof is the Spirit of God that continually speaks to my human Spirit. This is the same experience that HWA talks about in the introduction of his “Mysteries of the Ages”. This is the same Spirit that only RW and HWA was able to speak about that was in my heart and mind until I met others in the body and realize what it means to have one mind.
This Spirit explains all things through God’s true minister and end-time prophet.
I’m glad my proof was not waiting to see if the world was going to explode on a certain date or something like that. I thank God with all my being that he gave me that desire to find the truth and led me by His Spirit.
And everything else is as it should be and God’s plan proceeds. Thanks to all who have given good conversation. I pray that we all learn and or keep close to what is important and true.
Thank you South Africa for the news and it is amazing in how God works and His timing. Good news for those who walk with Christ. See all of you there, I hope.
As always, Peace and Truth
Hello Nonnie,
I hope you are well. You wrote this:
“…I have read on another (anti-Weinland) website that you post all the time under another name. This makes me suspicious that you have set us all up, and taken us down with the full intent of pulling the rug out and making a (STILL TOO SOON) erroneous judgement of RW…”
I’m not sure what you’ve heard, but it’s totally false. I never post on other sites about Weinland. Everything I’ve written about myself is true. I wanted to give RW a fair shot, and I feel I have. I’m sure you can see why I made my decision. If you wish to discuss the specifics of why I believe Weinland is a false prophet, by all means feel free to do so. However, please don’t impugn my intentions and accuse me of duplicity when I have been nothing but honest.
Charity wrote:
“…just because a person is a prophet does not mean that everything he says is of a prophetic nature…”
I do not wish to make this a long, drawn out affair. I will simply leave you with the fact that led me to my decision; 90 days has passed. March 14th has come and gone. We have seen no sign of the First Trumpet. I’m sorry, but Ronald Weinland is a false prophet.
God bless.
Hi Citizen X,
You are right. There is no point in further discussion if you truly are convinced that Ron is false. I guess I had hoped that there was a chance that you were not fully convinced. You see, I do believe that you have been honest with us and really wanted to know the truth. It even seemed that you were disappointed with your conclusions. For this reason I wrote. As you see, I haven’t bothered answering those who were not even slightly interested in changing their opinions. I hope that they didn’t force you to make your decision prematurely because of their name calling and nasty comments. Don’t be discouraged or give up your desire to follow God in Spirit and in Truth. It’s not over yet. Take care.
Hi Truthseeker,
Your path has been almost identical to mine. How could we ever doubt when God has so carefully and lovingly guided us step by step. It is an honor and privilege to obey such a wonderful Heavenly Father who has planned everything for the good of His beloved children. God bless.
The rest of the family,
Stay faithful and always remember to pray for each other. Take care and God bless all of you.
Hello Charity,
“…You see, I do believe that you have been honest with us and really wanted to know the truth. It even seemed that you were disappointed with your conclusions…”
Thank you for respecting my decision. You set a good example for open-mindedness and tolerance of others opinions.
Throughout this process, I have never allowed others to sway my decision. Not supporters of Weinland, undecideds, anti-Weinlanders, etc..
In a way, I was disappointed. RW represented the possibility of the Coming of the Kingdom, the Return of the King, a New Earth, New Heaven. That is what we all await. God works in his perfect time, although I might wish for it to happen sooner. The past years, through this experience and a multitude of others, God has been teaching me patience and to simply wait on his time.
I understand if you wish to continue to follow RW, and I respect your decision, although I disagree with it. I worry for the souls of those who follow one who is not of God. I say this out of nothing more than love and concern, so please take it in the spirit it is given. I can only pray that God will make everything right in his perfect time, and that the passage of time will make all things clearer to those of us who fervently await the Return of the Kingdom.
God bless.
Hi Citizen X,
Thank you for your kind words. I understand what you are saying about God teaching us patience. It’s something we all need to learn along with the ability to forgive others and to never let bitterness take root in us. God will work out all things in His perfect time, of that I have no doubt. He is faithful even when we are not.
I do want to clarify that it is God that I follow and not any man but I believe that He has shown me that Ron is His spokesman at this end time. So I guess it’s true that I follow Ron as he follows God. I’m not trying to split hairs. I just want to be clear. I hope that this is true for all the others that believe that Ron is a true prophet of God because if our faith is in man we are certainly in trouble.
I appreciate your concern for those who you believe are deceived. I believe it is heartfelt. I am also concerned about you but I know that God is able to complete the work that He has begun. You have my e-mail address. I would love to hear from you if you ever change your mind or just want to talk off the record. It’s not often that you come across a person who genuinely cares about people even when their opinions may differ. Take care and God bless.
Citizen X wrote:
“In a way, I was disappointed. RW represented the possibility of the Coming of the Kingdom, the Return of the King, a New Earth, New Heaven. That is what we all await.”
I felt the same. Probably everyone who has contributed to this forum wants nothing more than the return of the King of Kings. RW supporters and doubters alike, I’m sure, have shared that common longing.
Whether or not RW spoke for God, I am personally convinced of God’s 7000 year salvation plan and that the 7th day Sabbath and the 7 Festivals of Leviticus 23 paint an amazing picture of that plan.
Consequently, I am convinced we are close to seeing this age give way to a wonderful new age, the Millenium, when Jesus Christ will rule and reign on this earth with His ‘bride’. But before this comes about we have to go through the painful birth pangs, which may well be just beginning.
I will continue to remain watchful for the ‘two witnesses’.
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Mark
You wrote:
“Whether Ronald Weinland is a prophet or not has no effect on whether we should keep the Law. The Bible over and over again shows that God’s Law is holy and good and no part of the Bible (including Pauls letters) never says we should not keep God’s Holy Law.”
Agreed that God’s law is Holy and good.
But the Bible is clear that first and foremost we are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ’s shed blood for our sins – end of story. There is nothing we can do or add to that.
Then we receive the Holy Spirit as our helper to develop the mind of Christ and eventually to reach the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13).
We are not saved by faith in Jesus Christ ON CONDITION THAT WE KEEP THE SABBATH AND THE LEVITICUS FESTIVALS.
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The more I listened to RW’s preaching the more it became clear how scathing and dismissive he is of what he calls ‘traditional Christianity’. He looks down on all Christians outside of his own church who have put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
His preaching started to adversely affect my relationships with my Christian brothers and sisters in my own church. Also, because my church worships God on Sunday (Weinland’s view is that we are, therefore, carrying the ‘Mark of the Beast’), it made me start to question if we were actually worshipping some kind of Satanic false Jesus. As a result, the heart went right out of my worship.
This was the devastating effect the Weinland preaching had on my relationship with Jesus Christ and my fellow Christians, and I give this testimony in the hope it will save others who are following Weinland from the same trap.
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I am so thankful that God answered my prayer to show me the truth about the Weinland preaching. Now I have been freed and the joy and peace of mind that I lost has returned.
Whatever Weinland says to the contrary, there are saved Christians attending all kinds of ‘traditional’ and ’protestant’ churches. Because salvation is not dependant on which church we attend or whether we worship on the Sabbath or any other day. Salvation is dependant on whether we have put our trust in the shed blood of Christ for our sins and received the Holy Spirit.
Saved, spirit filled Christians can worship God EVERY day of the week not just the Sabbath.
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Weinland’s sermons often revolve around such issues as what time of the evening does the Sabbath begin and end ? Is Passover to be celebrated on 14th or 15th Nissan ? Is Pentecost Sunday or Monday ?
Just ask yourselves – which poor average man-in-the-street sinner is likely to know ANYTHING about any of this ?
This is totally destroying the simplicity of the Gospel, that the sinner is saved by FAITH in the shed blood of Christ for his sins FREE OF CHARGE.
JESUS CAME TO FREE US FROM LEGALISM. Ronald Weinland’s dangerous deception is intent on drawing his followers back into legalism.
Galations 5 verse 4 issues this stark warning:-
“YOU ARE CUT OFF FROM CHRIST, YOU WHO WOULD HAVE RIGHTEOUSNESS BY THE LAW; YOU ARE TURNED AWAY FROM GRACE”.
It was a trap Ronald Weinland nearly drew me into.
The conclusion drawn here is so right: HE IS A FALSE PROPHET
Interesting to hear someone say that God showed them RW is His spokesman so they follow him as he follows God.
The Bible teaches us not to do that. Paul talks about those who were saying, “I am of Paul”, or “I am of Apollos”, or “I am of Cephas”; we should follow no one but Jesus Christ Himself. When Jesus died on the cross, the veil in the temple ripped from top to bottom, signifying that no longer do we have to go thru a man (priest) to get to God, we have direct access.
I’ve never seen anything in scripture that says we should follow any man other than Jesus.
Mal you wrote
“Agreed that God’s law is Holy and good.
But the Bible is clear that first and foremost we are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ’s shed blood for our sins – end of story. There is nothing we can do or add to that.
Then we receive the Holy Spirit as our helper to develop the mind of Christ and eventually to reach the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (Eph 4:13).
We are not saved by faith in Jesus Christ ON CONDITION THAT WE KEEP THE SABBATH AND THE LEVITICUS FESTIVALS.”
Just because we are saved by Jesus shed blood does not mean that we are free not to obey God’s Law.
If person 1 commited murder and was senteced to death an person 2 paid the penalty for persons 1 crime person 1 would not go out and then commit murder again seeing how person 2 death did not do away with the Law against murder but paid the penality for commiting murder.
Jesus death paid the penalty for our sins (transgression of the Law 1 John 3:4) it did not do away with the Law.
So while we are saved by Jesus shed blood this does not mean we stop keeping the Law.
“His preaching started to adversely affect my relationships with my Christian brothers and sisters in my own church. Also, because my church worships God on Sunday (Weinland’s view is that we are, therefore, carrying the ‘Mark of the Beast’), it made me start to question if we were actually worshipping some kind of Satanic false Jesus. As a result, the heart went right out of my worship.”
Jesus did say in Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. ….. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus shows that the way to life is narrow and difficult to find so must people will not find it and that many will think that they are doing God’s work and they may be well meaning but in truth the are not really doing God’s work.
So to see if we are really follow God we need to test our teachings by the Bible.
Mark said: “So to see if we are really follow God we need to test our teachings by the Bible.”
RE: the law
Galatians 3: 1-5
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
And Colossians 2:16-23
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Seems clear enough to me. No one is to judge us based on keeping the law – including the Sabbath – and the Galatians were called foolish for believing they started with grace but would finish with the law.
Galatians 3: 1-5 shows that the Galatians were foolish for believeing that they could recieve the spirit by the works of the Law. It is not by the works of the Law that we recieve forgiveness of sins or the gift of the spirit. But that does not mean that we don’t have to keep the Law.
Like my example of person 1 committing murder. It was not the Law that saved him but the sacrifice of person 2 who paid His penalty that saved person 1. But person 2 paying the penalty of perosn 1 does not do away with the law of not killing, it merely gives forgiveness for committing breaing that Law.
It is by Christ death that we can be forgiven of sins (transgression of the Law 1 John 3:4). Christ death did not do the away witht he Law.
Colossians 2:16-17 shows that we are not to let anyone judge us in keeping of the sabbath or holydays but only the body of christ who can judge in these matters (notice the “is” is in italics, showing that it was not in the original greek.
Colossians 2:20-23 hows that we are not subject to the ordinances, commandments and doctrines of men. This is speaking of commandments of men as the scripture never calls God’s Law the the commandments of men.
So weather or not Ronald Weinland is a prophet or not does not affect if we should keep the Law, as the Bible clearly teaches we are to keep God’s Law.
Angel,
I Corinthians 4:15-16 For though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. (Paul is speaking)
I Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
II Thessalonians 3:9 … but to make ourselves an example unto you to follow us.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
From my Greek-English linear Bible: them which have the rule over you is translated as ‘the ones leading you’ and conversation is translated ‘way of life”.
The Bible is clear that God gives us leaders and we are to follow them as they follow Christ. It is our responsibility to “test the spirits to see if they are of God” because many false prophets are gone out into the world” John 4:1 and so we must be careful who we follow. (Only God can keep us from being deceived. The deception in the world is much too strong for us on our own)
Mark:
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Citizen X,
Thank you first of all for the website – I have always been taught that there is more than one side to every story, and you have kindly invited us here to discuss RW.
Regarding my March 27th post: this exact quote is from: ronaldweinland.googlepages.com/falseprophetronaldweinland
False Prophet Ronald Weinland
“This Page is a Companion to the Don’t Drink the Flavor Aid Blog”
About midway down the page, Websites, Blogs, and Forums about Ron Weinland and I quote:
“In early May, The Weinland Witness blog was started by Citizen X who had posted on Ironwolf’s forum under the handle John G. This is the only pro-Weinland blog. . . {there is more} ”
This is exactly where I got the idea you had posted elsewhere. Please accept my apology if that was not true, I know you cannot believe everything you read.
Angel, Mal
My words were:
“For me, I am behind the man that is led by God.”
I know you are not to be (mis)led by man. When I read 2008: Gods Final Witness I found questions I had had for 40 years were being answered, with reasonable and scripture-proven answers.
Since reading, God has blessed me with a clarity and an openness of mind to see the Thunders and the world “travailing”. That is why I mentioned the economy. EVERYONE knows that it is affecting them or someone close to them. You can believe whatever you want about how it will recover and how long that will take.
From Mal’s post:
P115
BEFORE THE SEVENTH SEAL IS OPENED, the seven thunders will become SO PRONOUNCED that the validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth. PROPHECY FAILED – NO PARTICULAR ESCALATION IN WEINLAND’S THUNDERS (WITH EXCEPTION OF ECONOMIC UPHEAVAL).
You say “FAILED”, and then an “EXCEPTION”. I say “should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit the truth”. Granted, few are called as of now. (I just read that and it sounds snobby but it is true).
You also state that other of RW’s prophecys have failed but honestly can you justify calling it a failure when you have only waited (not even) 15% of the time given?: 1335 days minus 181 (today is 1154 days before Christ’ return). Remember, this process is described as a woman in labor, not a balloon popping.
Often it seems we are sparring with one another using various Scriptures. I’m as guilty as anyone on that score, but I do think it is important to quote the Word of God to get at the truth.
But let’s remind ourselves of the common ground which we all share.
First, it is clear we are all believers in God. We are all seeking Him in our lives and searching for the truth.
Second, I’m sure all of us long to see the Kingdom of God come on earth (the Millenium) with Jesus Christ ruling and reigning.
I agree Ronald Weinland was/is (however you see him) an exciting prospect, if it meant the Second Coming of Christ would only be just over three years away. A fantastic and stunning thought !
So, I embrace you all as fellow humans on life’s journey searching for God’s truth.
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To Weinland adherants, I am not on a crusade against RW and Church of God PKG. Not so long ago I wrote on this blog:
Dec 11th 2008 – “I tend to think he (Ronald Weinland) is genuine”
Feb 18th 2009 – “To be honest, I would like Ronald Weinland to be who he says he is. The thought of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ returning at Pentecost 2012 would be the most exciting thing I could comprehend.”
To eventually see what I now believe to be the truth about him unfolded over the last two or three months.
Apart from the fact that God has not validated him (which is a crucial point), the adverse affect his legalistic preaching had on my peace and joy in the Lord, and on my worship and Christian relationships in my church, and also (I believe) God showing me that his preaching goes against Scripture, all added up to him being a false prophet (and I now believe with a dangerously seductive message that draws us into legalism).
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So, fellow seekers of the truth…..
Mark wrote:
“Jesus death paid the penalty for our sins (transgression of the Law 1 John 3:4) it did not do away with the Law.
So while we are saved by Jesus shed blood this does not mean we stop keeping the Law.”
YES, THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
But Jesus came with a NEW Covenant which made the Old Covenant OBSOLETE. Our aim is now to keep the LAW OF JESUS CHRIST with the Holy Spirit as our helper, not observe Old Covenant Festivals that Ronald Weinland puts such massive emphasis on.
………………………………………………………………………………….
The Old Testament rituals were MEANT AS A TUTOR. To teach about and point to the real thing, the pinnacle of everything: JESUS CHRIST.
(Gal 3:24) So that the law has been our TUTOR up to Christ, that we might be justified on the principle of FAITH.
(Gal 3:25) But, faith having come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR;
(Gal 3:26) for you are all God’s sons BY FAITH in Christ Jesus.
………………………………………………………………………………….
Jesus Christ Himself spoke about His NEW Covenant:-
(Mat 26:28) For this is my blood of the NEW COVENANT that is being poured out for many people for the forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews clarifies that the Old Covenant is OBSOLETE:-
(Heb 8:13) IN SPEAKING OF A NEW COVENANT, HE HAS MADE THE FIRST ONE OBSOLETE, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
………………………………………………………………………………….
With the love of Jesus in our hearts and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we are now to fulfill the LAW OF CHRIST:-
(Gal 6:2) Bear one another’s burdens, AND SO YOU WILL FULFILL THE LAW OF CHRIST.
Mal,
“…Second, I’m sure all of us long to see the Kingdom of God come on earth (the Millenium) with Jesus Christ ruling and reigning…”
I agree. It is a good thing to remind each other of the beliefs and values we have in common; our belief in the Bible, and our faith in the Coming of the Lord. We should think more on what unites us than what divides us.
Nonnie,
Early 2008, when I was still learning about RW, I joined several forums of discussion.
However, after discovering the extreme intolerance and the squalid level of debate, I left in disgust.
It was due to this experience that I founded The Weinland Witness.
Since the creation of The Weinland Witness, I stopped frequenting those other avenues of debate. I focused on creating an alternate place for discussion – one where other perspectives could be considered.
There has been no duplicity. I’m actually rather surprised you would arrive at such a conclusion. Regardless, I have been honest this entire time.
God bless.
Charity,
The verses you shared indicate Paul was talking about following the example he was setting, which is something every Christian should be conscious of as people look to us to see if we are living what we say we believe. What concerned me about what you and others have said about RW is that it seems to go beyond just following his example. You all seem to hang on his every word as if he was God’s spokesman, which is something he encourages (I’ve heard him say as much in his sermons), yet nothing tangible has come to pass to confirm this.
When you choose to follow a particular teacher, which is what Paul was indicating we shouldn’t do, you are taking a risk if this teacher turns out to be false, and if he’s the only one you are listening to, you’re in big trouble.
The Bereans searched the scriptures to see if Paul’s words lined up with them, but when anyone tries to do this with RW, they’re called unbelievers, mockers, etc.
I agree with what you said about testing the spirits, they can be deceptive, this is why when someone tells me “God” showed them “the truth”, I immediately go to the Bible. I do not depend on a “feeling” to know if someone is telling the truth so that raises a red flag. I hear that so often and it blows me away, that is the worst possible way to discern the truth of God’s word. Lots of things in this world that feel good are the worst things for you.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Citizen X,
Once again I will apologize to you. I only wanted you to know where I got the information from. I actually did not conclude you had acted duplicit, although I look back and see I used the word “suspicious”. I am truly sorry.
I said there is usually two sides to each story and I wanted to know how you would respond to that question, that is all.
I guess my humility still needs some working-on.
Thank you X, Nonnie
Hello Nonnie,
“…I only wanted you to know where I got the information from. I actually did not conclude you had acted duplicit, although I look back and see I used the word “suspicious”. I am truly sorry…”
No harm done. I can understand how it could be interpreted the wrong way.
God bless.
Nonnie
You said,
“……..You also state that other of RW’s prophecys have failed but honestly can you justify calling it a failure when you have only waited (not even) 15% of the time given?”
RW repeatedly said in various radio interviews that what would distinguish him as really being God’s prophet, as opposed to other cranks that claimed to be prophets, was that his prophecies would come true exactly as written in his book “2008 God’s Final Witness”.
He also said that, rather than being vague as most other ‘prophets’ predictions were, his own prophecies were specific and verifiable.
The examples I gave, taken from his book, are quite specific and have not come to pass.
I agree end times signs are all around us, and the state of the economy could well be one of those signs, but that alone does not make Ronald Weinland God’s prophet.
Charity, Nonnie, are you on the other forum so that I can send you a personal message?
Is any other baptized member of COG-PKG on the other Weinland witness forum, let me know what your names are because I would like to talk to you also.
Hi Truthseeker,
I would be glad to give you my e-mail address but I would rather not make it public. I’m not on any other forum and haven’t really made any comments on this one until lately. Can you think of any other way to give you my e-mail privately? Are you in contact with anyone else that has written on this website? Could you possibly get it from Citizen X? I’m not sure how it works. Take care and God bless.
Hi Charity,
I am in contact with truthseeker, contact me on southafrica2009@hotmail.com, which is a side email and
then we can tell you what we are on about.
Nonnie you are most welcome to do so too.
Take care and God bless!
Charity,
I have forwarded your email address on to Truthseeker.
Hi to everyone
I’ve just read all your comments, and have come to the conclusion that you all seem like a lovely, genuine group of people, regardless of what ’side of the fence’ you may be on.
Until very recently I had no religious beliefs at all. Then quite unexpectedly felt ‘a stirring’ to explore that realm. That ’stirring’ led me to COG-PKG and RW’s books and sermons and then to buy my first bible and begin reading.
I have a question to ask, and because of your obvious religious backgrounds and beliefs you may all find this question a bit strange. Please don’t think I’m being disrespectful by asking this question, but I have hit a stumbling block and don’t seem to be able to continue in my search for the truth behind our existence until I have the answer, and I thought that a group such as yourselves may be able to give an answer that I can comprehend and believe.
The question is – how can we be certain that the bible is genuine and not just an ancient fictitious novel?
Jazz
Thank you Citizen X.
Think-differently
Use your E sword bible tool and search this phrase:
new covenant
There are about 7 results in the new testament and one in the old testament.
What do you think that scripture means?
Jazz
That is a great question! I’ll wait for someone else to start on that topic, then I will answer with the truth from the bible. I’ve been up all night and the sun is coming up. I don’t want to respond to such an important question when I am fatigued.
Peace be with you.
Hi Jazz,
Your question is a legitimate one and one that we all must answer in our search for Truth. Is the Bible truly the Word of God? We can only know this as an absolute surety, something that we would stake our life on, when God gives us the faith to know it. Faith is a gift from God as is every other good thing that we have. There are “proofs” in archeology, etc. but to me the greatest physical proof is found in the life of God’s Son, Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh. In His life and by His death He fulfilled every word that was spoken of Him by the prophets in the Old Testament, becoming the Passover Lamb that was “slain from the foundation of the Earth”. His life and death were a part of God’s plan of salvation for mankind, a plan that God had determined long before He began the physical creation. Every other prophesy and promise in the Bible will also be fulfilled in it’s time because it contains the written revelation of the very mind and will of God.
God bless you in your search for Truth. Seek Him with your whole heart, soul and mind because there are so many deceptions and distractions that would keep you from knowing Him, the one true God. The Bible teaches that the road to eternal life is narrow and straight and there are few that find it. There is a way that seems right to men and most prefer this wide road because it costs little. We are told to count the cost, take up our cross and follow Him (Christ). He faithfully obeyed His Father in everything even to the point of dying for the sins of the World. Take care and God bless.
To: Jazz
the bible can be proven, there are writers here that can explain how. Also God can be proven…and the Hebrew God of Bible can be proven to be the true God.
Moriah.
Just start reading the Bible Jazz and if you ask God for help and understanding honestly with your heart he will reveal truth to you. Good Luck
Jazz
how can we be certain that the bible is genuine and not just an ancient fictitious novel?
The books of the bible were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. The bible has been around for thousands of years. If there were not a power of some kind behind that book, it would not have survived til this day. If it were a fictitious novel, it would have passed away by now.
Ask yourself how many books currently are printed in such a great number, and of the same age as the bible. I say there are none.
You have to either believe that a loving God provided us an instruction manual since the beginning of writing, or our great-great-great grandparents to the 10,000th power were up in the trees throwing their feces at each other.
I for one, cannot accept for fact that I am decended from simian origin, and the earth and heavens just “happened”.
The premise that life originated in a pool of amino acids that was struck by lightning, thus forming the first single celled creature,……is false.
Let me close with this pearl of wisdom:
See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. Colossians 2:8
Always believe what is written in your bible instead of another person telling you what it “really” means.
Read the new testament before you even think of opening the old testament. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Him.
To Charity and Jack
Thanks so much for your answers, they were both very enlightening.
I’ts funny with your comments about so called ‘evolution’ Jack, because my personal strong disbelief in the theory of evolution led me to investigate the ‘intelligent design’ theory quite a few months ago (which felt way more feasible to me) and of course that led me the rest of the way. I think I needed confirmation in simple and straightforward terms regarding the Bible, which you have both given me. I feel I can now move on to the next stage of my exciting new found knowledge and faith with comfort. My biggest hurdle now will be learning patience in the wait for God’s Kingdom coming to earth.
I’m very pleased I found this site, which was really by accident as I’ve been avoiding sites regarding Ronald Weinland as they have all been childish and unfairly insulting to him. At this stage my knowledge of RW is fairly limited but I do feel he is a caring and genuine person who truly believes he is a prophet of God, I for one am quite happy to continue growing and learning while waiting to see if events come to pass in the time frame he has given. I shall continue to read the comments posted here with eagerness.
Thankyou and God bless you both
Jazz
Always believe what is written in your bible instead of another person telling you what it “really” means.
Hi Jazz,
I’m glad that our words helped. There is something else that might be helpful to consider. The divisions between the chapters within the books of the Bible as well as the division between the “old” and “new” testaments have been put there by man, not God. The entire Bible is the Word of God, one continuous, beautiful story of God’s plan for mankind. You need to know the beginning of the story (what man has labeled the old testament) in order to properly understand the ending (new testament).
When Paul wrote to Timothy (II Timothy 3:16-17), “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works”, the scripture he was speaking of was the “old testament” since the “new” had not yet been recorded. God entrusted Paul to write a large part of the “new testament” so we would be wise to heed his advice.
We do ourselves and God a great wrong to decide that any part of God’s Word is more important than another. It all flows together to lead us to the Truth and the Spirit of Truth (the Holy Spirit) reveals it’s depth of meaning. Always ask God to help you to understand what is written.
Philippians 1:6 …He which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Hi Charity,
In your post of 17 April you say that, “The entire Bible is the Word of God”, and that, “God entrusted Paul to write a large part of the “new testament” so we would be wise to heed his advice.”
If that’s the case, then we should heed what Paul has to say in the Word of God about the TIMING of the coming of Jesus Christ. According to the Word of God, Paul (along with other “new testament” writers, and fellow first century Christians) claimed that Christ’s first appearance on earth signalled the end-times, and that they were all living in the “last days” and looking forward to Christ’s imminent return, effectively in the first century AD. It’s a theme that runs through the New Testament.
In Romans 16:20 Paul tells his fellow Christians in Rome of the first century AD that “The God of peace will SHORTLY crush Satan under YOUR feet”. He advises his fellow Christians living in Corinth in the first century AD (1 Corinthians 7:25-31) that “in view of the impending crisis”, virgins should not marry and married people should not seek divorce, and that they should not be anxious about the things of the world. The reason he gives for this advice is that, “the appointed time HAS GROWN SHORT”, “for the present form of the world IS PASSING AWAY”. In 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 Paul tells his fellow Christians of the first century AD that the evil actions of their ancestors serve as an example “to instruct US ON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME”. In 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 he addresses his fellow Christians of the first century AD as his “brothers and sisters”, and tells them that, “WE will not all die” and says that some of them will still be alive when “the last trumpet” sounds. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul again reminds his fellow Christians of the first century AD that some of them will still be alive at “the coming of the Lord”, and that “WE who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds…to be with the Lord forever”.
In Hebrews 1:2, Paul says that, “in THESE LAST DAYS he [God] has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things”. In Hebrews 9:26 Paul tells us that Christ “has appeared once for all AT THE END OF THE AGE to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself”. In Hebrews 10:37 he says that, “IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, the one who is coming will come and will not delay”.
In short, in relation to the expected timing of the return of Christ, Paul explicitly and repeatedly says in the Word of God that the times in which he and his fellow Christians are living (that is, the first century AD) are THE LAST DAYS which are characterised by the first appearance of Christ on earth, and his expected imminent return – an event which some of them would witness. The Word of God is unequivocal about the timing of Christ’s return.
Other New Testament writers express the same beliefs, i.e. that Christ appeared on earth in the end-times and that his return was imminent. See James 5:8 (“Strengthen your hearts for the coming of the Lord is near”), 1 Peter 1:20 (“He was destined before the foundation of the world, but WAS REVEALED AT THE END OF THE AGES for your sake”), 1 Peter 4:7 (“The end of all things is near; therefore be serious and discipline yourselves”), 1 John 2:18 (“Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming, SO NOW MANY ANTICHRISTS HAVE COME. FROM THIS WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST HOUR”.)
These are the explicit teachings of the Word of God, written in the first century AD and addressed specifically to people living IN the first century AD, not to Christians living in the 21st century.
Clearly, first century Christians believed that they were living in the last days and that Christ’s return was imminent. Why did they believe this? For the very good reason that this is what Christ preached during his lifetime, and what Christ-the-Revelator taught in the Book of Revelation. To give two representative examples:
Firstly, in Matthew 16:27-28, the context is that Jesus is speaking to his disciples six days before his transfiguration, and he says to them: “For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of the Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done. Truly, I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom”. Note that the later transfiguration scene makes no mention of angels, no mention of reparations, no mention of a “coming” or an “arrival”, simply the transfiguration of his body already present at the scene, and in the transfiguration scene Christ is not establishing his kingdom. So that Christ’s words, “the Son of man coming in his kingdom” obviously do not refer to his transfiguration but to his return to earth which will be witnessed by some of the people who are standing in front of him as he speaks.
Secondly, in Matthew 24 Jesus is sitting on the Mount of Olives and his disciples ask him when the destruction of the temple will take place, and what the sign of his coming and of the end of the age will be. Jesus tells his disciples that they will hear of wars and rumours of wars, plus famines and earthquakes in various places, that the good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, and that after the suffering of those days, “All the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory” (vs.6-30). In verses 33 & 34 Christ is talking to his disciples and says to them: “So also, when YOU see all these things, YOU know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place”.
Clearly, Christ is teaching his followers that all the things he’s been describing would happen during the lifetime of some of those followers who would live to see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’. (Note also that Paul believed that the gospel had already been preached “to the ends of the world” (Romans 10:17-18) and “throughout the world” (1 Timothy 3:16). We have to remember that “the world” as conceived by first century Christians in Palestine was a vastly smaller place than the world that we know. Nonetheless, this was Paul’s belief explicitly expressed in the Word of God.)
To sum up – Christ promised that his “coming on the clouds of heaven” would occur after all the signs of the end times had taken place, but before all of his contemporaries had died – effectively, that he would return in the first century AD.
The Book of Revelation written in the latter half of the first century AD has ten prophecy texts which explicitly specify a time-frame for the fulfillment of its prophecies. In all cases that time-frame specifies fulfilment in the near-future.
The first group of six time-frame prophecy texts features the Greek word “tachos/tachus” which means “shortly”, “soon”, or “quickly”.
(1) Rev 1:1 “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must shortly take place”.
(2) Rev 3:11 “I am coming soon/quickly; hold fast to what you have, so that no one may seize your crown”.
(3) Rev 22:6 “And he said to me, ‘These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must shortly take place.
(4) Rev 22:7 “See, I am coming soon/quickly! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.’”
(5) Rev 22:12 “See, I am coming soon/quickly!”
(6) Rev 22:20 “The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon/quickly”.
The second group of two time-frame prophecy texts features the Greek word “eggus” which means “near”, “close to”, or “at hand”.
(7) Rev 1:3 “Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near”.
(8) Rev 22:10 “And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand”. (This verse alone is virtually sufficient to demonstrate my point.)
The third and final group of two time-frame prophecy texts features the Greek verb “mello” which all Biblical Greek scholars, without exception, agree that when used with the Greek infinitive, as it is in the two instances below, means “about to take place” or “about to happen”. That is, it denotes something imminent in time.
(9) Rev 1:19 “Now write what you have seen, what is, and what is about to take place after this”.
(10) Rev 3:10 “Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is about to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth”.
It is highly significant that in Rev 1:19 Christ is being very explicit when he instructs John to record three things, and three things only: (1) things which he has seen (2) things as they are at the time of writing, and (3) things which are about to take place after those things, i.e. in the near future.
The three texts of Rev 1:1, 1:19 & 22:6 all say the same thing: the prophecies revealed in Revelation will be fulfilled in the near future. The placement of these texts in the first and last chapters of Revelation are like book-ends which serve to underline the message that the events prophesied throughout the Book of Revelation from start to finish are all about to take place in the near future.
The seven other time-frame references in Revelation are all consistent with, and corroborate the teaching of, the above three texts in that they indicate that end-time events, including Christ’s return, are imminent.
Therefore, if we consider all of these texts together, it’s clear that the only texts in Revelation which explicitly specify a time-frame for prophecy fulfillment, are the ten texts above, all of which explicitly specify a near future time-frame for fulfillment.
When we consider together
(a) the above texts of Revelation,
(b) the writings of St Paul,
(c) the writings of other New Testament authors, and
(d) the reported words of Christ himself during his lifetime,
all of which I’ve quoted above, there can be no doubt that Christ taught that his return would be imminent, and that first century Christians held that expectation as a result of his teaching. That they held this expectation is not in dispute by any biblical scholar/historian, and it’s clearly documented in other Christian writings of the second and third centuries. If we are to believe the Word of God on this topic, we must believe that Christ promised to return sometime in the first century AD. The obvious fact that he didn’t and that this caused great concern in the first century is confirmed in 2 Peter written late in the first century.
The New Testament’s only attempt to resolve the dilemma of Christ’s non-return as expected, is the suggestion in 2 Peter 3 of a delayed coming. The author knows that Jesus had promised to return in the near future but had failed to do so, and he acknowledges that many had begun to ask “Where is the promise of his coming?” (verse 3). He tries to reconceptualise Christ’s promise of an imminent return by paraphrasing Psalm 90:4 when he says that, “one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance” (verses 8,9). In paraphrasing Psalm 90:4, the author is suggesting that because God’s time is not the same as man’s time, we are at liberty to reconceptualise Christ’s promise of an imminent return as a return at some indefinite time in the future. He adds (verse 9) that this extension of time will allow more people to come to repentance. The problem with this explanation is that it is a purely speculative attempt to explain the embarrassing failure of Christ to return as promised, and it contradicts the plain meaning of Christ’s frequently expressed promise of an imminent return. This “explanation” for the delay or holding back of end-time events to allow more time for more people to repent has been used by countless “prophets” throughout the past 2000 years when things have not gone according to their earlier predictions based on their understanding of scripture. What many people might not realise is that Ron Weinland is simply the latest in a very long line of numerous “prophets” who’ve routinely used this excuse – and he certainly won’t be the last. The point is that the need to reconceptualise Christ’s promise by proposing a “postponement” in 2 Peter 3 simply confirms that Christ failed to appear as promised and expected.
As Professor Bart D. Ehrman points out in his Lost Christianities (Oxford: OUP, 2003, p. 46): “Neither Jesus nor Paul urged a social revolution. Why revolt against the present system in order to make society better in the long haul? For these people, there was never going to be a long haul. The end was coming soon, and the best one could do was prepare for it”.
Ron Weinland has failed to heed the “Word of God” and has failed to understand that Christ’s promise to return was already broken in the first century AD, and that expecting him to return on 27 May 2012, or at any other time in the future, is futile. To maintain that Christ will return sometime in the future is to ignore the overwhelming evidence of repeated teachings in the Word of God by Paul, by other New Testament writers, and by Christ himself, which clearly state otherwise.
Wow. That was a mouthful.
What I don’t understand is why, if God breaks His promises, do you believe anything He says? When someone lies to me that calls into credibility everything he says after that. If I believed what you just said, I would have to disregard all the claims God makes about His integrity, His omniscience, etc.
God’s Word is NOT just a set of documents written by men, who CAN make mistakes and CANNOT consistently and accurately predict the future. If Jesus and Paul made inaccurate statements about Jesus’ return, then either God is not omniscient since He apparently didn’t know it wasn’t going to happen “soon”, or they were presumptuous in presenting it as truth because, according to you and those who share your view, they were wrong.
The explanations of those who think end-time prophecies have been fulfilled fall seriously short. Not one explanation can show how any of these prophecies have been fulfilled in every detail, such as the ones the Bible describes that HAVE been fulfilled in their entirety. It’s not good enough to say that it was “partly” fulfilled, that means the prophecy was “partly” wrong, and that is unacceptable. God has set the standard higher than that; His prophecies must be entirely correct.
Based on that high standard, which God Himself has set, end time prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. The problem, then, is not Jesus and Paul, but an incorrect understanding of these scriptures.
I also want to add that being wrong falls into the same category as lying here, because since God claims to be omniscient, He cannot be wrong, nor can His prophets.
If we were talking about a mere man, who doesn’t claim to be omniscient, we can cut him some slack and not call him a liar if he’s just wrong, because we don’t expect him to know everything. That changes when he claims to be speaking for God, who DOES claim to know everything.
If God were to ever deliberately say something that isn’t true, then all His claims about omniscience and integrity go straight down the drain.
Hi Angel,
What I am saying is that based on their New Testament claims which I’ve quoted, Jesus, Paul, and other New Testament writings, including the Book of Revelation, all turned out to be mistaken. Christ did not, in fact, appear in the first century AD as promised in those scriptures. If, as you say, it’s a matter of my “incorrect understanding of these scriptures”, you might care to get specific and point out IN WHAT WAY they don’t mean what they say.
For example, in Hebrews 10:37 Paul tells his readers in the middle of the first century AD: “In a very little while, the one who is coming will come and will not delay”. If you think my understanding of this scripture is incorrect, please tell me why it doesn’t mean that Paul is saying in the first century AD: “In a very little while, Christ who is coming will come and will not delay”. Isn’t that what Paul is promising his fellow Christians of the first century AD? If not, how do YOU understand it?
To take another example, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Paul tells his fellow Christians of the first century AD that, “We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet”. If my understanding of scripture is faulty, please tell me why this does not mean that Paul is saying to his fellow Christians living in Corinth in the first century AD: “We will not all die, but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye when the last trumpet sounds”. Isn’t that what Paul is promising his fellow Christians living in the first century AD? If not, how do you understand that promise?
And a final example, in the Book of Revelation (“The revelation of Jesus Christ” according to verse 1 of chapter 1) Christ the Revelator instructs the angel in Rev 22:10 to say to John: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand”. If you think my understanding of this scripture is incorrect, please tell me why it doesn’t mean that Christ the Revelator is ordering John not to seal up the words of the prophecy because the time for the fulfilment of that prophecy is at hand. Isn’t that what Christ the Revelator is promising in the first century AD? If not, how do YOU understand it?
Unless, as you say, I have an incorrect understanding of these scriptures, these three examples of the numerous sections of scripture I originally quoted all make the promise that Christ’s return is imminent in the first century AD.
If that’s the case, then they were obviously mistaken, as that promise clearly wasn’t kept.
Essentially, that is the key point I’m making. As to the wider implications of that, it’s up to individuals to come to their own conclusions.
I look forward to your telling me what the above three scriptural quotations actually DO mean, if it’s the case that they don’t mean what they seem to be saying.
(Similarly with the other numerous quotations I originally gave.)
Over to you, Angel…
In answering your referal to 1 Corinthians 15:50-52. This refers to the resurrection that occurs at the last trumpet and the ones that are still alive at that point and have the seal of God on their forheads. They will be changed in the blinking of an eye from human form to spirit form. (We) means the people that have the seal of God on their forheads, dead or alive. The 144,000 are all risen at that time combined with the saints that are alive at that time. But Paul is specifically talking about the mystery of the people that are alive and transformed from human to spirit. Hope this helps on that one.
Hi Don,
You raise some good questions, I’d like to try to answer [I'm not saying i'm correct, its just the way I see it]. Time is relative, to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, but mankind is very impatient. Pauls writings are for all people through time. Its true that Paul thought that Jesus Christ was going to return in his lifetime as well as many others have over the last nearly 2000 years. Actually in a way their right, because in your next conscious moment after death you will have been resurrected, and Christ will have already returned. So if you’ve been dead for 1950 years, 100 years, 10 years, or a few days, its all the same for everybody. The next instant after you die [ in your mind] you’re alive in a resurrection.
God has allowed christians [throughout time] to feel that Christ’s return is soon so we would be more zealous. And it can be true, because we don’t know the hour of our death.
Don,
Let me start by saying there’s no reason to interpret unfulfilled prophecy allegorically because as we know, previously fulfilled prophecies were fulfilled literally.
It sounds as if you’ve taken a preterist position on this, please correct me if I’m wrong; and I’m not sure if it’s a full or partial preterist view because I haven’t fully studied each one. I see many inconsistencies in these views, but my biggest problem is the premise that the claims made by Jesus, Paul and the book of Revelation turned out to be mistaken; that is a deal-breaker for me and puts the integrity of the entire Bible into question. I would still like to hear how you can believe this and still trust anything the Bible says.
By saying the problem with understanding this issue correctly is not having an incorrect understanding of scripture, I’m not trying to say I have it and you don’t; what I’m saying is that if you accept the Bible’s claims about God’s integrity and omniscience, then your understanding of scripture needs to be in line with that. You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth and say you believe those claims, then turn around and say something that doesn’t support that.
Obviously these prophecies are not easy to understand or there wouldn’t be so many views and debates. One of the issues here is deciding whether Jesus and Paul were JUST speaking to first century Christians or do they include Christians living in the final days of the church age. I believe they’re better understood as including the latter because it explains why these prophecies haven’t yet come to pass.
Regarding Heb. 10:37, when I read the entire chapter I’m not thinking “oh, that’s just for them, doesn’t apply to me”. If we’re expecting the phrase “a little while” to mean what we think it should mean, then we can each put our own interpretation on it; does it mean a few hours, days, weeks, months, years? Do you always mean exactly the same thing when you use it? And isn’t God’s view of time different than ours? Scripture tells us God is never late, is that wrong too? 2 Pet. 3:9 says God is not slack concerning His promise, as SOME count slackness, but longsuffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
In Rev. 22:10, Jesus says “the time is at hand”. You’ve put a time frame on it that you say is now past, but I believe it’s better understood as meaning that the last days began with the death and resurrection of Jesus, so people should be looking for these end time prophecies to be fulfilled; remember, this was written AFTER 70 AD, and Jesus is saying they have NOT YET been fulfilled.
I’m not sure I’ve addressed all your questions, but this is getting long and I have some things to do, so I’ll get back to this later. Have a nice day!
Slight revision, in my 3rd paragraph I meant to say the problem with understanding this issue correctly is not having a “correct” understanding of scripture, sorry about that.
When you start deciding scripture is incorrect, where does it end?
Don,
I’ve always viewed the Bible as an “All or Nothing” book; either it’s all true as it claims, or there’s nothing in it I can really trust. I find it impossible to accept that Jesus, Who is God, would make so many statements regarding His return and then not show up.
First of all, that’s rude. Have you ever been expecting someone and they not only don’t show up, but they don’t give you a heads up that plans have changed or apologize because they got tied up or forgot; they just left you hanging. Very bad manners. It’s different, though, if someone says they’re coming, but won’t say exactly when, just be ready. That probably doesn’t sit well, though, with people who don’t like to be kept waiting.
Second, Jesus is God, how can He be MISTAKEN? That kills the Bible’s claim of God’s omniscience, or He allowed someone that didn’t know what they were talking about and reported wrong information to write His Word. That’s not possible because it would violate scripture concerning God’s prophets needing to be 100% correct; a biblical writer cannot be wrong or he wasn’t speaking for God.
Third, there’s a reason the word TESTAMENT is used when referring to the OT and NT. This is TESTIMONY, truth that should stand up in any court, on earth or in heaven. Can you imagine bringing a document to court filled with errors and inaccuracies; at best, it wouldn’t help your case, at worst it’s perjury if one claims it’s true but isn’t. Can you honestly believe that God’s word is such a document? I can’t.
Fourth, because God chose not to reveal the timing of Jesus’ return, it was presented as something that could happen any day. Was that deceptive, or was it done that way because 2,000 years later Christians would still be waiting for it and God had this in mind: He is patient and giving ample opportunity for people to be saved, and He wanted all Christians to live in such a way that they were ready and looking forward to meeting Jesus every day.
Last, Jesus and Paul made it abundantly clear that NO ONE knows when it will happen. Taken literally, that includes you, me, Ronald Weinland, etc. Mr. Weinland is not the only one who has made such claims, many others have attempted to predict the timing and ALL have been wrong. And anyone who says Jesus isn’t coming at all, well, either the Bible is wrong or they are.
In response to Angel and marcusmaxis…
It’s time for a quick tutorial in Early Church History. Early Christianity emerged in a world where Jewish apocalyptic thought was already flourishing. It’s not surprising, therefore, that there arose in early Christianity a widespread conviction that the spirit of God had returned, a sign that the Last Days had arrived. St Paul took upon himself the role of divine agent to bring about the inclusion of the nations in the people of God in the Last Days. I’ve previously quoted many scriptural passages which demonstrate that first century Christians saw their era as the culmination of history as they knew it. They saw themselves as living in the “end-times” or the “last days” characterised by the first appearance of Christ on earth and the expectation of his imminent return to establish the kingdom of God.
Anxieties begin to arise late in the first century with the problem of the apparent death of the Beloved Disciple (John 21:23), indicating that there was an expectation by early Christians that this disciple would not die before the return of Jesus. It would appear from these verses that he has now died, so a question has been raised about the validity of the belief in the future coming of Jesus. In the second and third centuries, the failure of Christ to appear as promised was discussed from time to time, but eventually the discussion petered out.
For the expert Early Church historian all of this is old hat, well documented, and entirely non-controversial. In other words, as far as first century Christians were concerned, they certainly did NOT think that Paul and other New Testament writers were writing for a time or people set some 2,000 years into the future. Attempts by 21st century Christians to alter this historical reality are driven by the desire to graft their 21st century theological position retrospectively and anachronistically on to Early Christian experiences. So be it. Nothing I say will change that.
Ironically, the United Church of God acknowledges the documented historical reality that the first century Christians believed in Christ’s imminent return during their lifetime. However, the Church claims that ALL OF THEM, including the apostles, St Paul, and the other New Testament writers I’ve quoted in previous posts, were mistaken, in that these beliefs did not originate with Christ but were developed by his followers. In an email to me dated November 28, 2008, one of their representatives says: “It is true that the disciples of the early New Testament Church, including the Apostle Paul, initially believed that Christ would return in their life time. Christ made no explicit statement that He would return in the disciples’ lifetime, they simply assumed and hoped that He would.” I happen to disagree. I think that the idea that those closest to Christ during his preaching ministry entirely misunderstood his apocalyptic teachings is wholly implausible, and that scripture repeatedly demonstrates that they held their belief in Christ’s imminent return because that is what Christ taught them.
Here endeth the tutorial, and my contributions to this discussion site……
Don,
Thanks for the “tutorial”. Sounds like you got that right out of a textbook.
I notice you didn’t respond to any of my questions, but after reading your last post, I’m not surprised. Nor am I surprised that it was your last contribution, that’s the way it usually goes when people are asked direct questions they don’t want to answer.
Textbooks aren’t the Bible.
Nor am I surprised that it was your last contribution, that’s the way it usually goes when people are asked direct questions they don’t want to answer.
That is sooooooo true.
Dear Angel and Jack,
OK, you’ve goaded me back into a response. Two points.
My “tutorial” is certainly not taken from any textbook. It’s just a distillation of the conclusions I’ve come to after years of thinking about and researching the findings of the latest biblical scholarship on this topic. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used that ironic and somewhat self-mocking term.
Angel, secondly, I actually started a longish draft responding to you in some detail. (Far from not wanting to supply an answer to direct questions, I can tell you that my problem is the reverse. When I get going I never know when to shut up! And I’ve been writing papers on these topics for many many years.) I began with analysing the two very different ways we approach interpretation of scripture – yours is the dogmatic approach by which all interpretation must conform to your beliefs. That is, your existing beliefs drive your interpretation. My approach leans more to the objective historical analysis of text-in-contexts – whether literary, cultural, or historical. That is, whereas in your case, your beliefs drive interpretation, in my case interpretation drives my beliefs. I come to the task with as open a mind as I can muster, and my investigations may cause me to adjust my beliefs. In your approach you prejudge the issue to the extent that you declare certain things to be fixed and true, and therefore this determines the interpretation. All I was doing was, in the interests of clarity of thought, analysing our different approaches, prior to moving on to address your questions.
As I continued working on my draft and began to engage with your questions, I eventually realised that this would go on endlessly as there was so much to say about each aspect. I concluded that we would probably tend to talk past each other for ever, and neither convincing the other in the process. So I abandoned the attempt and decided that the best thing to do was to simply give a summary of my understanding of the current state of findings of most recent biblical scholarly/historical research concerning what the early Christians believed in relation to Christ’s return. I stand by that. There is almost universal consensus on this point, and it’s not really contentious.
I was also raising the question of why it seemed important to Angel to probe my beliefs, as if what I believed had some bearing on what the writers of the New Testament were intending to mean in their writings. I think the most important task is to try to ascertain, in as objective a way as possible, the intention behind the writing at the time of writing. What implications this might involve is another matter. Maybe the confusion arose because in my post of April 18 in response to Charity’s claims about the “Word of God” I said “IF that’s case….” I didn’t say I believed it WAS the case. I was simply hinting that IF we do believe certain things to be the case, then certain implications necessarily flow from those claims, and there may be many problems arising as a result – problems of which we ought to be aware.
Angel, I’m quite happy to continue a friendly dialogue with you off-post, if that’s what you’d like, and if Citizen X would, at your request, oblige you by giving you my email address. But our approaches to interpretation are so different that it may not be very fruitful. But I’m happy to continue off-post if you so wish.
Hi Don,
Although it wasn’t my intent to “goad” you into a response, I’m glad you’ve rejoined the discussion, even if briefly. Even though we don’t agree I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts and opinions. I can relate to not knowing when to shut up once you get started, I’m that way too.
It’s fascinating that you’ve so quickly analyzed me and figured out how dogmatic I am, and what drives my “interpretation” of scripture. I don’t come to these discussions looking to change anyone’s mind, and I’m reasonably sure there wasn’t a possibility of changing yours, so we may have different ideas about what having an “open mind” is.
After much study, I’ve formed certain opinions and beliefs; the ones I think make the most sense and that I believe are true. That doesn’t mean my opinions and beliefs will never change, though, but that definitely won’t happen when people don’t answer my questions.
My way of showing an open mind is listening to and considering the opinions of others, sharing my own, and answering any questions posed to me about them.
Your explanation of why you chose not to address my questions once again side-stepped them. What you offered instead was that you stand by the “almost universal consensus” on what the early Christians believed in relation to Jesus’ return. Don, that’s not how I discern the truth contained in scripture. I don’t follow the crowd, I don’t look outside the Bible to figure out what I should believe.
I’m saddened that you’re so willing to believe other sources, but not the Bible. There are many biblical scholars out there that don’t agree with the scholars you’re referring to, but in any case I don’t look to them to find truth.
I’m definitely willing to have a friendly discussion with anyone, but I think it would be more fruitful to have it online; reason being, you and I most likely aren’t going to change our beliefs, but there are people reading these blogs who could benefit from seeing two sides of these issues.
Hi Angel,
Oh dear, what am I to do? You say that I once again side-stepped your questions. I thought I’d explained quite clearly that MY longwinded responses to your questions would go on endlessly, i.e. just take up enormous amounts of blog space. Not realistic. But longwinded emails between two self-confessed longwinded people (two “consenting adults”!) would be OK. But if you’d prefer our discourse to continue online, here’s what I’m suggesting.
In my opinion, the questions we’ve been considering go back to more fundamental issues to do with the very nature of scripture, and unless we truly understand each other on that, we will continue, as I said in my previous post, to “talk past each other for ever”. So can we just clarify our respective starting points, please?
In order that I may clearly understand a couple of your starting points, may I just ask you two questions:
(1) What is your overall basic position on scripture – for example, do you believe that all scripture is the divinely inspired “Word of God”, and thus incapable of error, deception, or genuine and non-trivial self-contradiction – such that its integrity ought never to be doubted, questioned or challenged?
(2) Do you believe that Matthew 1:22-23 refers to Isaiah 7:14, and that the Isaiah verse is a prophecy about Jesus Christ, and therefore one of the many proofs that the appearance of Jesus as Messiah in the first century AD was foretold in the Hebrew scriptures?
regards,
Don
Don,
You can choose to continue this conversation or not, the reason I prefer to have public discussions is because others then have the opportunity to join in and perhaps benefit from hearing different views.
To answer your first question, all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. I believe in the integrity of the Bible, and it will either stand or fall.
Matthew 1:23 is pretty much a direct quote from Isaiah 7 so I would say yes, it’s a prophecy about Jesus.
Now may I ask you 2 questions?
1. If the Bible contains errors and inaccuracies about God, how can you know anything about Him?
2. If you yourself don’t believe everything the Bible says, why would you tell someone else they have failed to “heed” God’s word?
I believe in the integrity of the Bible, and it will either stand or fall.
It will stand and not fall.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away.–Jesus Christ
Jack,
Amen!
To say that “heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away” is a powerful statement. Who can make such a claim but God alone?
C.S. Lewis said it best, “A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
Angel,
Firstly, to answer your questions:
1. Why do you ask? I’ve never claimed that the Bible contains errors and inaccuracies about God. But watch this space – for starters you might look first at Numbers 23:19 and then compare it with Exodus 32:14. Can they both be right?
2. Ron Weinland claims that he heeds God’s word. I say that by predicting Christ’s return for 2012, he is ignoring the fact that the Bible says that Christ promised an imminent return (but then failed to keep that promise).
I will go along with your wish to conduct a friendly dialogue online, but I have to say that there is every chance that some of my responses may necessarily take up an enormous amount of blog space. This was the reason I suggested an email exchange in which I could, when appropriate, easily attach papers which I’d written offline.
You say that you believe that Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy about the virgin birth of Jesus referred to in Matthew 1:23. Matthew 1:18-23 tells us that Mary’s pregnancy, caused by a miraculous virginal conception by the Holy Spirit, would result in the birth of a son to be called Jesus, and that this is the fulfilment of the prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures: ”Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel”. (Isaiah 7:14).
In my opinion, if we’re going to be serious about trying to properly understand scripture, we need, among other things, to examine a text within its context. If we take a verse out of its context it means we can make it mean anything we like by simply ignoring that very context which will often throw valuable light on the obvious meaning intended by the writer. To fail to look at context would be not only highly irresponsible but just plain mindless. So, let us examine the context of Isaiah 7:14.
The overall context of that verse is that chapter 7 of Isaiah tells the story, set in the 8th century BC, of when the Northern Kingdom of Israel and Syria (Aram) are laying siege to the Southern Kingdom of Judah ruled by king Ahaz, who greatly fears this threat on his border lands (vs. 1-2) . God sends the prophet Isaiah to Ahaz to assure him that his fears are groundless (vs. 3-4) because the threatened invasion will not happen (vs.7). Ahaz is invited to ask a sign from God but refuses (vs. 10-13). Isaiah then says that the Lord himself will give Ahaz a sign, and delivers assurances to Ahaz about the military threat to his kingdom. Here are three versions of those prophetic assurances in verses 14-16:
(1) (King James Version, 1611): “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings”.
(2) (New Revised Standard Version, 1989): “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted”.
(3) (Hebrew-English Tanakh – the traditional Hebrew text and the new Jewish Publication Society translation into English, 2003): “Assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of His own accord! Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel. (By the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good, people will be feeding on curds and honey.) For before the lad knows to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground whose two kings you dread shall be abandoned”.
(I note that Isaiah 8:1-4 uses a parallel prophetic device echoing the type used in Isaiah 7; this time to indicate that before the prophet Isaiah’s own son knows how to call his parents “My Father” or “My mother”, the king of Assyria will invade Damascus and Samaria and carry away their spoil. The function of both these prophecies is to predict a point in time which will mark a change in politico-military fortunes of rival states in the 8th century BC – indicating the time of that change by reference to certain stages in the development of newly born sons. That is the only status the sons occupy in the wording of both prophecies.)
Clearly, the whole point of Isaiah’s visit to king Ahaz in chapter seven is to bring God’s assurance that despite Ahaz’s fears about the military siege, his country will not be invaded because even before the son who will be born to the virgin or young woman is old enough to distinguish between good and evil, the crisis will be over. It also means that this child will necessarily be born during Ahaz’s lifetime in the 8th century BC. That child, therefore, is most certainly not Jesus Christ. The only purpose served by mentioning the birth of the son is to give a sign of WHEN the military threat will have abated. Therefore, whether the mother is best described as a ’virgin’ or a ‘young woman’, is not really crucial to the actual point of the prophecy.
But one thing is quite clear: The very purpose of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy is to assure king Ahaz that an 8th century BC military threat to his kingdom of Judah will soon be removed – and there is absolutely nothing in the text of Isaiah 7 to even remotely connect THAT scenario with a miraculous virgin birth of Jesus in the first century AD.
Nevertheless, some theologians want it both ways. They concede on the one hand that the prophecy does indeed relate to events taking place in the 8th century BC. But they argue that the Hebrew text of Isaiah 7 says “a virgin shall conceive” (rather than “the young woman is with child”). Therefore, they say, this can be construed as ALSO being a prophecy about the virgin birth of Jesus, because this is one of those Old Testament prophecies which have a “double reference”. That is, it has both an IMMEDIATE fulfilment as well as a much later ULTIMATE fulfilment. However, there is one huge problem with this very ingenious theory of “double reference”. If it is true in this particular case, then it necessarily means that there have been two virgin births in history – one in the 8th century BC and one in the 1st century AD! I think that means we can discount that particular theory.
So, why does Matthew regard Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy about the virgin birth of Jesus when nothing in the text itself even remotely suggests it? The most common explanation given is that Matthew was relying on the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the Hebrew scriptures. This version translates the ambiguous Hebrew term “almah” as the Greek “parthenos” which generally means ”virgin”, which is the concept Matthew obviously wanted to convey. However, Hebrew scholars say that this is a mistranslation in that “almah” is a somewhat ambiguous term which means young woman or girl or maiden, sometimes implying virginity, depending on the context of its use. They say that if the specific term ‘virgin’ were intended, the unambiguous Hebrew word “be’tullah” would have been used. As mentioned above, the sole point of the Isaiah prophecy in mentioning the birth of a son is to give a sign of when the military threat will have abated. For this purpose, no point is served by requiring that the child be conceived in some supernatural way, and whether it’s a “virgin” or “young woman” who is involved may be an interesting linguistic argument, but it’s ultimately immaterial to the central point of the prophecy.
At all events, whatever his motivation might have been, what Matthew did in his gospel was to ignore the CONTEXT of the prophecy, and, without justification, make it appear as if a prophecy about a politico-military crisis in the 8th century BC was actually a prophecy foretelling the miraculous virgin birth of Jesus in the 1st century AD. In doing this, Mathew seems to have been less than scrupulous, for it’s hard to imagine that he didn’t realise what he was doing. His action has had the effect of conveying a false impression to all those Christians who might be unaware of the full historical context of the Isaiah prophecy and its real purpose. People have simply taken Matthew’s version at face value, and the Churches have been less than honest about this, often invoking the highly dubious “double reference” defence I’ve mentioned above.
Matthew and Luke are the only gospels which report on the circumstances of the birth of Jesus, both claiming that he was born of a virgin. Luke does not claim that the virgin birth is the fulfilment of a specific Old Testament prophecy. Matthew’s gospel is therefore the only New Testament source to claim that the virgin birth of Jesus was specifically foretold in the Hebrew Scriptures. But as we have seen, the truth is that Hebrew scripture contains NO prophecy about the virgin birth of Jesus. Therefore, Matthew’s claim in 1:18-23 that the virgin birth of Jesus was a fulfilment of a messianic prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures is false.
What are we to make of this? The author of Matthew often attempts to prove that Jesus is the Messiah by showing how the details of his life fulfill the Hebrew scriptures. In this instance, whether he acted knowingly or inadvertently, Matthew’s claim that the virgin birth of Jesus was the fulfilment of an Old Testament prophecy turns out to be false. Angel, you say that you believe in the integrity of the Bible. How then can Matthew’s claim be the ”Word of God” if it’s false?
Well, Angel, I did warn you about my longwindedness! Perhaps you would care to mull over what I’ve said above. Please point out any errors you think I’ve made. All I’m doing is just meditating on the implications involved in discovering the real meaning of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy when you look, objectively and without preconceptions, at its context in chapter 7. Some people might possibly say something like, “It’s the Word of God no matter what you say, and I would rather believe God than you”. In which case, they would know in their own heart that they would be closing their eyes to the truth of the matter, and refusing to look at things in an open and honest way. But you may well surprise me with something I had never thought of. Angel, make my day!
Don,
Num. 23:19 and Ex. 32:14 are both right. To repent or relent can be translated as being sorry for; this doesn’t necessarily mean a change has occurred, it just means there is regret for something that has happened. God relented from the harm He said He would do to His people because of the promise He made to Abraham, this is consistent with His character because no matter how He feels He won’t break his promises. God doesn’t repent in the same way a man does; man changes his mind based on new information, God doesn’t. In the case of Jonah, God relented because of Nineveh’s repentance, again, this is consistent with His nature.
In regard to the prophecies concerning Jesus, the word “almah” doesn’t demand the meaning “virgin”, but it doesn’t rule it out, either. Matthew connected the virgin birth of Jesus with the prophecy in Isaiah, which is why we understand it as a double prophecy, referring first to the situation King Ahaz was facing and secondly to Jesus the coming Messiah. In my opinion if something like this can be reconciled, as I’ve just explained, there’s no reason to see it as a discrepancy. Your hypothesis depends on Matthew being a liar, and even though your scholars have offered a coherent argument for this view, that doesn’t prove its validity.
The bottom line is that if the biblical writers were guilty of the deception you’re accusing them of, if they made contradictory statements as you claim, then the Bible can’t be inspired by God and you don’t really know anything about Him. Therefore whatever you believe is from your own imagination.
Let’s be open and honest with each other, you’ve presented the opinions of men outside the Bible as truth, but reject the truth presented by the men who wrote the Bible. Don’t fool yourself that anyone who doesn’t accept your view has closed their eyes to the truth; that is a manipulative and presumptuous statement because we are not God and no one has to accept our opinions as truth.
It’s not my job to change your mind, Don, and the only thing I can present that you may not have seriously thought of doing is putting aside your books and papers and read the Bible as it if were God’s word written to YOU. If God doesn’t speak to you thru His Word then it’s unlikely you’ll listen to anything I have to say.
Angel,
Thanks for your resonse. I don’t need my “books and papers” to think about the obvious implications of what is said in the Bible.
You say, “Matthew connected the virgin birth of Jesus with the prophecy in Isaiah, which is why we understand it as a double prophecy, referring first to the situation King Ahaz was facing and secondly to Jesus the coming Messiah.”
If you believe that a virgin-birth prophecy referred, first of all, to the situation king Ahaz was facing, doesn’t it mean that you also have to believe that there was a virgin birth in the 8th century BC? That is, that the Bible says there have been two virgin births in history? (This was the point I made in my discussion.)
Re. Num 23:19 & Ex. 32:14, possibly we are working from different translations. I was looking at the NRSV in which Num 23:19 says: “God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal that he should change his mind”. Ex 32:14 says: “And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.” One says that God does not change his mind – the other says that he did.
The Jewish Publication Society Hebrew-English Tanakh translation gives Num 23:19 as: “God is not man to be capricious, or mortal to change his mind”. Ex. 32:14 is rendered as: “And the Lord renounced the punishment He had planned to bring upon His people”. In the Exodus verse God is not expressing regret for “something that has happened”, as you say. The Lord changed his mind before it happened, so that it didn’t happen.
If you rely on the KJV, it says: “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people”. This is not “expressing regret for past happenings” – it’s expressing regret for determining to do a certain thing. Repenting “of the evil which he thought to do unto his people” means he originally decided to do something, but before he did it, he repented that he’d made a decision which would bring “evil” upon his people, and therefore decided not to do the thing he’d originally said he would do. In plain language, he changed his mind.
The KJV rendering of Num 23:19 asks:”hath he said, and shall he not do it?” In Ex 32:14 it’s clear that God had originally said to himself that he would “do it”, and then later decided he would “not do it”. That’s a change of mind.
It seems to me that you are trying mightily hard to avoid accepting the plain meaning of these texts. I invite you to look at what I’ve said and tell me exactly where the errors are.
I don’t believe God actually changes his mind.
He will look at a direction things are going…and make a decision to act on that…..if circumstances change or can be changed based on the will of the people, He will not take the action originally spoken.
a few examples: Sodom and Gomora was going to be totally wiped out….but 1 family was spared because they were deamed rightiouse.
the whole world was to be wiped out by flood untill Noah obeyed God and built the ark.
Isreal spared the prostitute and those with her because she was willing to help Isreal by hanging the scarlet rope(?) over the wall to help the spies.
Don,
No, I don’t believe that understanding the verse in Isaiah 7 as a double prophecy means there would have had to be two virgin births. The Bible only records one virgin birth as having taken place, when Mary gave birth to Jesus. There is no other birth recorded that could be the one spoken of in Isaiah 7.
Don, you’ve invited me to point out your errors. Let’s save time and discuss the biggest one. You don’t believe the Bible. Everything after that doesn’t even matter, because we’re not going to agree on anything. I’ve had discussions with atheists that didn’t challenge the Bible as much as you do, and I say that with a heavy heart. You’re not challenging ME, you’re challenging the men that wrote the Bible, and the God that authored it. Who exactly do you think Jesus is? Just a historical figure, or do you not even believe that? Here you are arguing against the virgin birth, against the unchanging nature of God, against the integrity of the biblical writers; if I were reading this as a book review I’d say you gave it a thumbs down!
You want to talk about who is trying “mightily hard” to avoid answering questions? You’ve yet to answer the one I’ve asked over and over again, if you don’t believe the Bible, what makes you think you know anything at all about God?
Because you don’t believe the Bible is God’s word and that the men who wrote it were not trustworthy you fall into your second error; you start picking and choosing what you will believe, you take things literally when it suits you, allegorically when it doesn’t, and this allows you to create a god in your imagination who is just like you think he ought to be. I don’t know what god you believe in but it’s not the God described in the Bible, right?
Don, the things you see as discrepancies in the Bible do not have to be seen as discrepancies, but without spiritual discernment and the help of the Holy Spirit there’s little hope you can understand that, and if you think my saying that is a cop-out or that I’m “close-minded”, that just proves my point.
I’m going to ask again, if you don’t believe the Bible, how can you know anything at all about God?
Don,
This is not a place for atheists or those who don’t believe the Bible. Those of us here have long ago passed that place in life where we pondered the validity of the Word. If you wish to endlessly quibble about minor points that you find incredibly important, feel free to do it somewhere else. I won’t spend a lot of time discussing it as its a no-brainer.
Suffice it to say TWW is first and foremost a place for Christians. It was within those parameters that undecideds and believers fell. If you are looking to convert Christians to atheists, you may do it somewhere else. This site will not become an instrument of doubt.
There are many other places where you will find likeminded people who share your nonbelief in the Bible. With all due consideration, I suggest you join your ideological comrades there instead of spending fruitless hours here.
Take care.
Here Here Well said Citizen
I just came across this blog. I keep the Biblical Holy Days and Sabbath. This is what Yeshua (Jesus in Hebrew) did. The 1st and 2nd century Christians also kept these. I don’t attend RW church. I prefer a Messianic synnogue that is Jewish in practice. That is how the early church was.
Thank you for this blog. All I have seen online is biased hate against RW. You were open minded and came to a conclusion. You showed your proof. I agree. He is a false prophett.
I’ve been reading the blog posts of Mr. Weinland. His latest doesn’t mention anyhting about prophecy. It only talks about him being invited as a speaker to an event in Canada called Ideacity. I’ve looked at some of his older posts though.
From all he has said – we’re still to consider Pentecost of 2012 as the date of Christ’s return and that the actual length of the 1260 days is being shortened by the fasting and praying the Church is doing right now. The 1260 days IS important, but the time of suffering has been shortened.
It’s been shortened by about 6 months thus far.
The prophetic part of RW’s ministry appears to have become more vague as time has gone along.
Since the prophecies in his book ‘2008 God’s Final Witness’ failed to materialise, interest in him outside of his own church has inevitably waned.
Looking at his website there are 20 radio interviews posted for 2007. This dropped off to just one for 2008 and just one so far for 2009.
As I understood it, RW’s church started fasting and praying at the end of January for God to increase the ‘thunders’ described in his book in order to bring about more repentance.
Mr. Weinland is not the only one predicting 2012 as the year of Christ’s return. I know of others who also think this. Some of the problems I have with this is that all of them are teaching false doctrines and one of them, like Mr. Weinland, has previously set a date that was wrong, but at least he didn’t blame God for the error. Somehow even when they’re wrong these guys are able to convince people to continue putting faith in their teachings.
Mr. Weinland said he would stop preaching if he was wrong and admit he was presumptuous; he broke his word. Does this sound like something God would tell His prophet to do?
“Mr. Weinland said he would stop preaching if he was wrong and admit he was presumptuous; he broke his word. Does this sound like something God would tell His prophet to do?”
No – and honestly, it doesn’t sound like something the fellow I knew at one time would do either. Apparently things have changed. Including Mr. Weinland.
Oh yes, another thing…..
Ron strongly suggests follwers of his should not be on forums like this – can makeyou stumble, ruin your faith etc.
So just wondering – why are so many of you here? Why are you being disobedient to the almighty Ron? Perhaps it is your pride, and your desire to be RIGHT?
Sorry Citizen X if this is a bit strong – yes, I am angry. Left PKG in January, and am only now getting angry. Angry, sad.
Just want to know the truth – didn’t find it with Ron.
The search continues……
To think differently:
Thank you for giving me knowledge of e-sword. It makes locating a verse so much easier.
I hope someday Jesus Christ will lead you into eternal life.
Kirrily,
My dad is in PKG. I have tried to talk to him, but he will not listen. He is all RW. It breaks my heart to see them living in such fear! It has also brought fear to some family members who are not in this group. I would really like to talk to you one on one if you would be willing. I would like to ask you some questions about what is going on in PKG.
In any case, you don’t need to keep searching for “the man”. Christ is our true shepherd, all others are hirelings(john 10). Just go to him and he will give you any answer you need through his scriptures.
Kirrily –
When the WCG shattered in ‘95 – ‘96, I felt much the same way. Angry and sad. I had many close relationships with people that went their separate ways over various articles of faith that none could agree on anymore. What I discovered that the emphasis on “correctness” was more important than LOVE . . . which is an error in itself. There’s a vast difference between being puffed up and built up . . . and sometimes I think folks in many faiths can get the two confused.
If God was interested in form being emphasized as the epitome of faith – Christ would not have come in His function as the fulfillment of the Law; and the Law with its emphasis on form and compliance to form would have continued. Granted – knowledge has its place – but it’s not knowledge that saves us through grace – it’s LOVE.
Sorry you’re feeling as you are, but that doesn’t mean your growth and search has stopped . . . not by a long shot. I hope your journey continues well.
I find it odd that Mr. Weinland is discouraging people from listening to dissenting opinions. I’d always been told that we are to test our faith to see if it’s true . . . even when I was in the WCG. Mr. Armstrong wrote repeatedly to look into what he’d written and what he said, to seek it out ourselves – to test it to see of it’s true.
A faith that would wither in the face of dissenting words isn’t really a faith . . . is it?
And the question is – either Mr. Weinland is a prophet, or he’s not. Citizen X has declared that he is not. Given the reasoning behind his conclusion, I would say it is more than reasonable. But in the end Mr. Weinland’s followers will reach their own conclusions, regardless of the blogs and opinions. Mr. Weinland’s own words will judge him true or false. I guess it depends on the ears of those who hear . . . .
Dear All
I would appreciate your views on two of Ron Weinland’s teachings.
1) That, according to Mr Weinland, modern day ‘tongues’ are just gobbledegook and the language of demons. Satan is bringing this deception within what RW calls ‘traditional Christianity’. Presumably, nobody in the Church of God PKG speaks in this form of ‘tongues’.
Personally, I do not speak in tongues but I have always believed that the Holy Spirit has given some folk the gift of an unknown language which they use in prayer. This is not to say that I believe that everyone who claims this gift is genuine.
2) According to Mr Weinland, Jesus was not crucified on a cross but on a stake. Does anyone know of any reason for claiming that Jesus was not crucified on a cross ?
Dear Citizen X,
Thank you for the opportunity that this forum provides for open discussion of a very serious and solemn subject as the coming of our Lord and the arrival of the witnesses His Word has promised us. There has been much deception and false claim made in past times but I’m sure all must agree who have their eyes even remotely open that this world has not long to stand. This age is approaching it’s end, and it will not see even another decade before Christ’s return.
That being said, I must take exception to the position that many people are taking with regard to Mr. Weinland and his wife not being who they claim to be. Nothing that has been put forth is sufficiently based in scripture or compelling enough to debunk the claim. I have seen in many of the comments here a desire to hold on with stubborn pride to false teachings using loosely based arguments; giving scriptural reference taken entirely out of it’s intended context within the whole of the Word.
For those who hang their entire unbelief on the issue of timing, you are playing a very dangerous game. Do you not think that our Eternal Father reserves unto himself what he does and does not give through his prophets. To say that he has never done this before, therefore he can’t do it now is to put him in a box and deny Faith in his Power. We can not know the hour or the day so do you really think that he is going to let us hang all our Faith in his coming on that one issue. People, wake up! The substance of what his prophets give us in terms of the truth about events speaks clearly for itself. No other church of this world has been teaching the Truth of our Eternal One as openly and candidly as the COG-PKG even long before Mr. Weinland and his wife being given the tasks they now are blessed with. I’m sure many self-righteous believers and ministers would like to fancy themselves more likely candidates for the calling but the fact remains God gives favour to whom he will.
The other point of contention seems to be around the fact that one of the witnesses is female and that she is a silent partner in this end time ministry to bring Yahweh’s truth to this world. The Bible is not without it’s prophetesses and there is certainly no reason to suggest that our Father would not use a couple in such a capacity. No where in any of the scripture regarding the witnesses in Revelation or Zechariah does it suggest that these two people would both be men. Doesn’t it seem very poetic that the Eternal One would use a ‘faithful pair’ representing the unity of the Family, since his sole purpose in creation of man has been to that end; to gather unto himself a family of spirit beings who have not been forced to obey but willingly chosen His law after seeing clearly the outcome of government by man under Satan followed by the fulfilment of GOD’s KINGDOM on this earth bringing peace, harmony and growth in Spirit finally to us all.
By her outward silence in this ministry Laura Weinland demonstrates obedience to her husband as God commanded it and I assure you is by no means silent in the relationship that exists between herself, our Eternal One, and her husband. Most people in this world not having a true understanding of the proper dynamic within a marriage may have a hard time understanding this. Do you not think, you naysayers, that for this time of the end, a time which has never been known by man and never will be known again that God would reveal himself to us in a manner also in which we have never before seen.
I pray that your eyes will be opened, but I know that this depends entirely on you and how you humble yourself before our Father and repent of all that you hold onto in this world that is false. Do not let your PRIDE deprive you of the gift that God places before you. Re-think, examine your hearts, God will show you the truth if you truly desire it above all else; even your own life.
As Ron has said, we must not let relationships of any kind to be put ahead of God’s will and his law. For those of you who still cling to Sunday worship as though there isn’t enough information out there to prove you are deceived, you have much to overcome. You stand more in awe of man and worldly relationships than you do of Almighty God. Bear in mind what the Word says about God’s Church. It has never been destined to be large, it is a remnant of the Faithful. Examine the churches of this world honestly and ask, which of these fits this criteria. There can be only one! One Eternal Father, One Christ, and one Church built upon one rule of Law! God’s Law! He admonishes, come out of her my people, meaning the false churches of this world of which there are many and they all believe in a common set of false teachings handed down from Simon Magus and the sorcery of Babylon. Truth blended with false teachings is all false for it leads not to the truth.
The straight and narrow path we are called to is for this end time. We should strive daily to know that we are on it. It is far too important an issue to guess at and our clinging to our pride is not worth what we will most surely lose by doing so.
I pray that my words have been those my Father has provided me and that they may open the minds of those who hear them.
Faithfully in Christ,
DSinclair
Dear Mal,
With respect to your questions about speaking in tongues and the matter of stake vs. cross!
1.) Tongues is a manner of speaking by which all who hear the spoken word can hear it clearly in their native tongue so that all can understand. It is of God and of His Holy Spirit, only a person having his spirit dwelling withing them could even hope to be granted this ability. The perversion of this practice as it is seen in mans churches which is clearly utterance of gibberish intended to appear mysterious and somehow holy is vile and disgusting before God. He wishes for us to have understanding and knowledge, in no manner does this Pentecostal based doctrine resemble God’s actual intent. It is not of God, if it is of any spirit it is of Satan.
2.) As for the issue of the crucifixion, all one has to do is research available historical information about how the Romans of that day dealt with criminals and you will quickly discover in what manner Christ was treated and by what device he was crucified. The cross has a very different placed of origin and has been substituted for false worship. Our Bible clearly tells us that we are not to worship any image. God and Christ are not images for us to worship before an altar they are real and divine, seeking personal relationships with each and every one of us through prayer and true repentance of sin.
Don’t believe me. Here’s a little digging I did. Seek the truth and you shall receive it.
Source: http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/cross.html
A tradition of the Church which our fathers have inherited, was the adoption of the words “cross” and “crucify.” These words are nowhere to be found in the Greek of the New Testament. These words are mistranslations, a “later rendering,” of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says, “STAUROS denotes, primarily, an upright pole or stake…Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pole, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two-beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea (Babylon), and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)…By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the pretige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross piece lowered, was adopted…” [1]
Do a wikipedia search on Tammuz! You will discover all you ever need to know about the origins of the Cross.
Faithfully in Christ,
DSinclair
Dear Mal,
One more thing regarding tongues. Here is a rather exhaustive exploration of the subject I came across in a google search with a great deal of biblical reference. I hope you find it as compelling as I did.
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=393
Faithfully in Christ,
DSinclair
Mal –
I can give you a little fo the old WCG basis for some of this. (As Mr. Weinland draws heavily from the writing of Mr. Armstrong – - – and scripture of course.)
1) There is(are?) Scripture wherein God states our language is corrupt and that there is a language that will be taught to us upon Christ’s return. It was taught that it would be something akin to Hebrew.
As far as speaking in tongues – in the WCG it was looked at as something you kept to yourself, unless someone was able to translate it. (Also supported scripturally.) I think every Minister I met had a story about how they knew someone who could speak the language that a person was speaking in tongues in at a traditional Christian Chuirch somewhere – and that person was unknowingly speaking in the most vile blasphemy . . . because, of course, they weren’t in the One True Church and hadn’t really received the Holy Spirit upon baptism.
2) Some of this is historical – some has to do with translation. A lof of crucifixion at the time was performed by tying someone to a stake. Raising the arms above the head would suffocate someone a bit faster. there are places in the Bible wherein the word is not cross – but stake. (Back to the langauage thing.) I don’t have a concordance or translations with me, but I remember Sermons wherein this subject was covered.
The WCG also taught that Christ did not die from Crucifixion, but rather from the spear thrust of the Roman Soldier. (The origianl Revised Standard version states this.) I remember a very detailed explanation of the Roman Pike and how it was used to kill in a Sermon that Mr. Weinland gave to our congregation once. Pretty memorable.
The WCG, being averse to assuming anything in Traditional Christianity was correct, taught that Christ was crucified on a stake, not a cross. And died as a result of the spear thrust of the soldier. So – having a cross in Church or around your neck was triply incorrect. 1) for the graven image aspect and 2) cuz it wasn’t a cross that Christ died on anyway 3) not only that – it wasn’t the ’stake’ that killed Him, it was spear.
And – - – personally, I still believe all those things to be correct. (The refraining from tongues in public unless someone understood you. And the historical aspects of the crucifixion. My Bible says that Christ cried out when the spear was thrust in His side, then He died.) Although all that correctness ain’t what saved me . . . it was Love.
Hi riee64
Thanks for your input.
It is apparent from what you say that some in the old WCG did speak in tongues providing there was accompanying translation. However, you don’t say whether the tongues were known languages or not.
Ron Weinland has been clear in his sermons that he believes the kind of tongues prevalent in modern Christian churches (ie. not any known language) are demonic.
From the Scriptures, it is not clear to me whether some of the speaking in tongues at the time of the Apostles included unknown languages or not. The Apostle Paul in 1Cor 13:1 speaks about ‘tongues of angels’, and perhaps these were unknown languages ?
It is a fact that speaking in tongues (unknown languages) during prayer is very common amongst Christians today, including my own church. I have assumed that (in most cases) these tongues are a gift from the Holy Spirit.
At the present time I have no reason to believe Ronald Weinland’s generalisation that modern day speaking in tongues by what he calls ‘traditional Christianity’ is demonic.
By the same token I have also no reason to believe that the ‘true’ Holy Spirit is only active in those individuals who are baptised members of Ronald Weinland’s church.
………………………………………………………………………………………………
Regarding Ronald Weinland’s assertion that Christ was not crucified on a cross but on a stake, I have done a bit of research on the web.
It appears that the words used in the New Testament, and in early Christian times, to refer to what Jesus died on could apply to a simple stake as well as to a cross.
However, early second century writers, such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeas speak of Him only as dying on a two-beam cross.
At the end of the same century, Tertullian speaks of the Christian custom of marking themselves repeatedly with the sign of the cross, and the phrase “the Lord’s sign” was used with reference to a cross composed of an upright and a crossbeam.
The symbol of the cross of Christ is surely at the very foundation of our Christian faith ? I can see no justification for any alternative assertion made by the old WCG or by Ronald Weinland.
Mal,
Hi. If you look at your last paragraph, you will already have your answer. “Symbol” It is a commandment that we should not worship idols or anything man put up as their symbol of who they would worship.
Nonnie
NONNIE,
I have a picture of Jesus and a cross hanging from my rearview mirror. It is not that I worship these things. The cross is just a symbol of my faith, which shows others what I believe in. The picture of Jesus is also not worshiped but a reminder of who my Lord is and what he has done for me.
Your saying that because I display his picture I am worshiping an idol is total bunk. I have photographs of family members all about my house….does this mean I am worshiping them?
I hope you get my point.
Hi Nonnie
Your point has been concisely answered by todd.
I agree with you that it would be wrong to look superstitiously to the cross as an icon, or to worship its image.
But as todd says, the cross itself is not an object of veneration or worship. Christians worship Christ. The cross of Christ only reminds us of the sacrifice of our Saviour. What is crucial is that the cross symbolizes what Jesus accomplished, and the Christian life itself. Jesus says that each Christian must take up his cross and follow him (Matthew 10:38; 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 14:27. Like any symbol, its purpose is to remind us of something or to point us to something.
Some suggest it is breaking the second commandment to display a cross in church services or to have a cross on a bracelet, a necklace, in a picture and so on. But I believe God does not command such a thing. We are commanded not to make idols and not to worship them. Unless the cross itself becomes an object of worship in these uses, I do not believe it is a sin to wear or display one. The commandment is against the worship of or service to images, not against every image. Otherwise, we could have no symbols, pictures, carvings or any representation of anything at all.
The cross of Christ has huge meaning for Christians as a powerful symbol of their relationship with God, who gave his Son that we might die to sin and live in Him. We need not be ashamed of it, and we need not be offended by it. The cross is not to be worshiped, but in no way should it be disparaged as sinful.
The assertion that Jesus did not die on a cross (Ronald Weinland) is one more stumbling block for me in accepting him as God’s prophet.
I believe God’s truth clearly but can not be baptized for one or more of three obvious reasons: age, location, ability to travel. With this blog being inactive I posted in Mike’s blog and many on Mike’s blog have been interested in asking me questions that I answered. While I enjoy the site and many ask reasonable questions that I answered, I was most excited when getting a chance to talk to someone on cog-pkg. I tried to give the person my email on the blog but Mike deleted it not due to blog rules but due to who I was trying to contact. So hopefully someone in cog-pkg reads this post and contacts me at an email I set up specifically for the purpose,, weinlandobserver@live.ca
There haven’t been any posts lately so I was just wondering if there was anyone out there still interested in sharing their thoughts or observations about Weinland and COG_PKG.
I ckeck here regularly and look in on Mr. Weinland’s site as well. It seems that there’s very little “press” about him now. I suppose that’s not necessarily a good thing – - – especially if the mantle you bear is rather large. When people stop talking about something – does it cease to be significant?
Hello. I’m someone who posted on Mike’s blog, don’t drink the flavor aid. I believe Ron and the 50 truths. Many have asked me questions and no matter what kind they were, to convince me of a particular idea or curiousity, I answered them. Check out the topics from June 20th onward to find out more about me. Email me at weinlandobserver@live.ca if you wish as I have been trying to get in contact with someone in cog-pkg and others will probably contact me as well, a few who seam to enjoy talking to me from Mike’s blog. Note: this email address is a new one that I recently created for people I meet while discussing Weinland.
I really miss this forum where people from “both sides of the fence and those still on it” could share feelings and ask questions openly without being thought of as “second class” commenters just because they disagreed with the majority. It’s too bad that the PKG members felt that they could no longer post just because Citizen X decided that Ron was false. After all, he left us with a safe place to meet and discuss things important to us.
riee64; I don’t think people have stopped talking about Ron. They have just stopped talking about him here. : )
Same here although I never commented on the forum. I should have, but wasn’t ready. I can’t believe Mike tried to stop me from talking by posting restrictions on who I could talk to on his blog.
Hello. I’ll repost here with the suggestion I was given. I believe the fact Citizen X does not believe Ron to be God’s final witness should have no impact on whether people post here. I’m hoping more people come and post here. You may have seen my name on another blog. It’s the same person. Talk to me if you wish.
Charity you are right. Members of COG-PKG now have another site to communicate with others who are one minded. I don’t think it is a shame though. It is progression. Either, one thinks RW is who he says and becomes baptized or the do not and go on their way, the are not sure so they seek to find the Truth of the matter, or the sit on the fence and go nowhere. I personal have to desire to debate the matter, with those who do not see what I see.
Peace
Truthseeker: What is the new website? I agree with you; I too would like to be able to communicate with those of like mind. If you are unable to give me the website for privacy reasons, could you tell me if “Maritimes Canada” knows it and I could e-mail them. Thanks
Truthseeker: I just scrolled up through the comments here. Quite a while ago (before Passover, I think) you asked for my e-mail address and I gave Citizen X permission to give it to you. He said that he gave it to you but I never received an e-mail from you. If you still have that information you could let me know what the website is in an e-mail. Thanks
I still think Ron is not a false prophet as the timing had indeed changed due to the 50th truth. I also believe that the sermon on the Last Great Day will explain what happened as a result of the fast with time times and half a time.
Hi WO: I haven’t checked here for a few days. I didn’t see your Posts of July 6 and 8 until today. Strange since there is not much traffic here. Are you enjoying the sermon series on Mercy? I’m interested in hearing about your thoughts and this is a good place to share them. : )
Hello. Good to see you here. The sermon on mercy has lead me to quite a bit of praying as I have always been thankful for the fact that God even created me even going back to where I knew nothing or little about the Bible other than verses quoted by some that made me a little suspicious probably in the way they were quoted, and nothing about the truth. The oneness of God was all I had. Now I have much more to be thankful, spiritually as well. I still have to listen bit by bit. I learned that when you repent and ask for forgiveness, it is wise to pray for those you effected to be at peace. That was indeed beautiful.
Hi WO: It is interesting that the first thing that God revealed to you was “the oneness of God” because, of everything, this truth sets COG-PKG apart from almost all of the other Christian religions and definitely makes a distinction between it and the other COG splinter groups. It was God’s mercy that revealed that to you. Before I knew anything about PKG, God had brought me to the place where I knew that the Trinity doctrine was false. I believed that the Holy Spirit was God’s Spirit, not God, that dwelt in Jesus and after Pentecost could also dwell in men who had received the forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Christ. I probably still thought of the Spirit as a person or maybe a personality would be a better word. Anyway, there was still some confusion from years or believing God was a “trinity”. From my study of the Bible, I had also come to understand that Jesus was not equal with God the Father, that He was given His authority and position by His Father and was in full agreement and obedience to Him. He was uniquely God’s son and never committed sin though He was tried and tested in every way. He was the Lamb of God, without spot, our Lord and Savior and soon coming King. I still would have believed that He was in the beginning with God due to my understanding of several scriptures so when I read about Jesus not eternally existing I had to do some studying and rethinking in order to understand things correctly. I listened to the Feast sermon series on this topic, following along in the Bible, looking up the meaning of the Greek words,etc. and was fully convinced. This too was the mercy of God, allowing me to see enough beforehand and giving me understanding when the time was right. God’s timing and Plan is perfect. I’ll talk to you again soon. In the meantime, enjoy the day. It’s a beautiful day where I live, the sun sparkling off the blue of the water and the reds and greens in the distance.
Hi Charity.
I always understood the oneness of God. Let’s just say I know a lot about Islam and what the Quran says as I had read it before the Bible. I understood God’s oneness then but as I stated in Mike’s blog I didn’t understand Christ’s job. Where I used to live there were several different religions although the place isn’t very religious. I have seen that no religion is practiced in its original form. Everything I ever believed whether it be now that I know the truth and before I knew it did not come from what was around me but mostly from what I read. Although I disagreed with much of Christianity, I figured that it was indeed what the Bible taught. The Trinity, being saved without works but just faith, and Zionism are a few I can think of off the top of my head. Howevever, I believed this was indeed what the Bible taught and that the original text had been corrupted by the 325 Nesian Council. With Armstrong’s writings I learned that the Bible teaches a completely different message from what i thought it taught. I also read of the preservation of the Bible by the Greeks in one of Armstrong’s articles.
Through that I realized one thing slowly and it was that rather than using other texts, Satan actually convinced the largest mass in one belief category to be that of those believing the Bible. He must have felt that rather than just creating various religions, it would be better for him to create varying beliefs on God’s word. That is why Christianity has thousands of sects. I know of no other religion with this large number of sects. Furthermore, I realize that after the apostacy the same thing happened only this time with the twisting of the very truth revealed by God’s word.
Also, I realize that the Sabbath in the world is actually the busiest day of the week. This is largely the case in Europe with the supermarkets. Basically, Satan wants to convince people to do the exact opposite of what Gd wants and for them to not even know it.
Have a good day. I’ll take a walk in my area. Don’t know if it’s as sunny as it is in your place but the weather is nice. More sunny days are needed. I can count the number of good beach-going days in one hand.
Hi Don (Sinclair)
While scrolling back through previous entries, I have just found your June 7th responses to my questions regarding Ronald Weinland’s assertion that ‘modern day tongues are satanic’ and ‘Jesus died on a stake not on a cross’.
I guess there is a delay on the posting of some of the entries which is why I didn’t see this before. Also, I got a bit confused as another Don had previously posted with Christian views rather different to yours.
Anyway, thanks for your interesting response and the web links. It would be good if others could check out the web links and give an opinion on these subjects.
Hi Charity and Weinland Observer
Thanks for your entries. That is what makes this Blog interesting, to read differing views. We can all be prepared to learn from others.
As Ronald Weinland followers, I would be interested to know how you deal with the fact that the prophecies he has made in radio interviews and in his books have not come to pass as he predicted.
I find him to be a very good and interesting speaker. But if his predictions are failing why should he be accepted as God’s spokesman regarding other things he says about, for example, ‘modern day tongues’, ‘the trinity’ and ‘Jesus not dying on a cross’.
I would be interested in hearing the answer to that myself. These particular views are shared by some of the cults, which are sects that have departed from Christianity, such as Mormonism and JW’s.
In each case, it seems that the prophet or teacher has put his own spin on certain verses, expecting his listeners to take his word for it, while ignoring verses that contradict these teachings.
I have found that the basic teachings of Christianity are firmly rooted, and can be clearly shown, in scripture.
Whenever the focus is taken off Jesus, and He is demoted to, while supposedly dearly beloved and appreciated, Someone less than God and therefore not worthy of the worship due Him as God, I am deeply saddened. My friends, that’s just not good enough; Jesus is God in the flesh, not a created being, not just a “special” son of God.
Also, let’s not kid ourselves that the COG-PKG is not one of the sects that came out of Christianity; it is exactly that. Every cult out there wants to hold itself up as having something special that God just now revealed, and every one of their members feels special too. Let’s stick to what God’s word says and not give too much credence to our feelings, which are not what we should be using to discern truth.
Have a great day!
Hi WO: I have asked some of the people that used to comment here (but left after Citizen X declared that Ron was a false prophet) to drop by this blog and “say hello” to you. So far it hasn’t happened and it may not, but we can always hope.
I found your last comment very interesting. It is amazing how God can take people from completely different backgrounds and different understandings of God, His Son, and the scriptures and bring them to the same conclusions in the end.
Hello Charity. If people stop by that will be great. If not, I found another way. I contacted South Africa and she sent me a couple of messages and is helping me get in touch with some people. So far 3 people spoke to me. If you want you can ask her for my info.
Hi todd
The ‘50th truth’ from COG-PKG was something that kept me extremely interested in RW even though his first set of prophesied dates failed. The reason being that the 50th truth gave a remarkable numerical fit which I felt could not be ignored.
As we all know, his book ‘2008 God’s Final Witness’ claimed that during 2008 the countdown to the return of Christ would start.
Also, for a long time RW had been preaching about the 1335 days of Daniel 12 v 12, and how this time period prefigured the return of Christ.
Also he had preached about the 280 day (40×7) period of judgement that fell upon Joseph Tkach (the leader who took over the WCOG after the death of Herbert W. Armstrong and tore down most of his theology). According to RW, Joseph Tkach is ‘the man of sin’ described in 2Thess2 v 3-4.
Also that Christmas was the major pagan festival that Satan had seduced the traditional Christian church into observing.
THE ‘50TH TRUTH’ THEN GAVE A NUMERICAL FIT THAT TIED IN WITH ALL THE ABOVE POINTS.
1) The Feast of Trumpets 2008 announced the countdown to the return of Christ (tying in with the title of his book ‘2008 God’s Final Witness’.
2) Jesus would return on the Feast of Pentecost 2012 which is exactly 1335 days later.
3) The Feast of Trumpets 2008 also announced the coming judgement of Satan (at Christ’s return) and this was exactly 280 days after Satan’s pagan festival of Christmas 2007.
The numerical fit of the 50th truth maintained my interest in him and I was prepared to accept that, just maybe, I would have to change my thinking on some of my traditional Christian beliefs. Particularly as all the signs that we are in the last days before the return of Christ are there (the world has never been so much on the edge of a precipice).
However, time has gone on and we are now deep into the 1335 days with many predictions he made in his book and in his radio interviews failing to come to pass. So, what are we to make of the ‘50th truth’, which surely remains a remarkable numerical fit ? Almost as if God had given him the final piece of the jigsaw. A mere coincidence ? A satanic red herring ?
Angel, todd and others, I would be interested in your thoughts.
Charity and Weinland Observer
As two RW followers, my question to you in my last post was a serious one ‘How do you deal with the fact that several detailed prophecies he made in his books and radio broadcasts have not come to pass as he predicted? Do you have an answer?
Hi Mal. I remember reading your posts before. The first timeline didn’t fail. It just wasn’t given by God. The 50th truth was given by God and proof of Ron being a prophet. As for what “failed to come to pass” everything was moved up 8 months after Ron’s understanding of the timeline was corrected. I see you learned much from Ron. However you didn’t go far. You didn’t get rid of traditional Christianity and it’s inconsistancies. Okay, so you don’t know that Ron is a prophet or don’t believe it. Do you not know that traditional Christianity is false? With the Trinity, Pagan holidays, and the use of “have faith” when trying to explain its position, can you not see that is a lie? I’m sorry as I come across harsh here. I don’t mean it in an agressive way just an eye-opening way. If you don’t know the truth and know what is a lie, you need to route out the lie to get to the truth. I was about to disbelieve Ron when I heard about the timeline. However, I decided that I would hear him out no matter what he concluded just for the sake of knowing what he would believe. I instead realized that the timeline had been corrected. The 50th truth is simply perfect in every way.
P.S. The Oct. 10 sermon will give info on time, times, and half a time. This will help us understand what happnes next and when.
Mal,
Although I find those types of numerical issues interesting, I’ve never been as intrigued as I know some people are. As fascinating as they are, it seems to me that God is more concerned that we believe the clear teachings of scripture than figuring out these often complicated numerical configurations that may or may not lead to the conclusions people have come up with.
Mr. Weinland is not the only teacher that has drawn followers with this type of teaching, and I’ve noticed that their fascination with it often keeps them listening even after the teacher has made predictions using these numbers and been wrong.
I believe there are many numbers in the Bible that have a deeper meaning than just what is explicitly stated, but care should be taken before giving more credence to someone’s ideas about what those numbers mean than what the Bible clearly teaches; there should be no contradiction.
Weinland Observer,
You brought up an important point; Mr. Weinland’s first timeline wasn’t given by God. Yet, he said it was, so he was wrong. There is, therefore, no reason to believe his second timeline is correct either. The Bible tells us that if what a prophet says does not come to pass, it was not from God and we don’t have to fear him. Mr. Weinland has attempted to get around this by “correcting” his timeline and blaming God for the inaccuracy, but scripture gives no quarter to unrepentant false prophets so it is a futile effort.
I pray you will reconsider and heed the Bible’s warnings concerning following a false prophet.
Hi everyone,
Thanks for your interesting posts. This blog seems to be warming up again. By that I mean it is good to discuss how we read, understand and use Scripture to get at the truth.
Personally, I don’t find Scripture that simple and find that you have to dig around. As Isaiah 28 v 9,10 says, we have to put ‘line upon line’ and ‘precept upon precept’, ‘here a little, there a little’.
My Bible teaching involved being taught that Scripture is on four levels commencing with the simple or surface understanding known as Peshat. The next level of deeper understanding is called Ramez. The third level down is called Derash and the fourth is known as Sod (or secret). These four words combine to give the acronym PARDES, which in Hebrew means orchard and signifies the fruitful understanding of God’s Word. With much of the numerical information, we receive a spiritual understanding at the lower levels.
Angel
Based on what I said above, I believe numerical information given in Scripture is important. God never puts anything in Scripture that is not important. In this regard, there are many things that I agree with that Ron Weinland says.
Before I ever heard of him or his church I was taught that God gave us a 7 day week as a picture of 7000 years of time given to Adam’s race. The Sabbath day, being the 7th day, is a picture of the last thousand years (the millennium which is mentioned several times in Revelation) when Jesus will return to restore the earth as God intended. God makes use of the numbers 6 and 7 in various parts of the Scriptures as further evidence of this. Just one example of many I could quote (and have quoted in previous posts) is Exodus 21 v 2 “A Hebrew slave will work for 6 years and then he will go free”.
I was also shown that God gave a blueprint for his salvation timetable in the 7 festivals he gave in Leviticus 23. These are largely ignored by today’s Christian church and the festivals we celebrate are, as RW says, pagan based. Also, as RW says, God uses the number 40 for judgement. Maybe it was a coincidence, but it appears that Joseph Tkach was indeed struck down 40 Sabbaths after his major speech to the WCOG saying it was ok to ignore the Jewish festivals, Sabbaths etc.
Similarly, I don’t believe we can ignore the 1335, 1290 and 1260 days God gave in Daniel 12. But Daniel was told that understanding of these prophecies was reserved until the time of the end (Dan 12 v 9). Now is the time of the end, so we can expect God to reveal the meaning of these numbers.
Also, to be fair to Ron Weinland, he didn’t blame God for the changed timeline, he blamed his own understanding. He believed (like many other people) that Jesus would return on the Feast of Trumpets not at Pentecost. So, to get his first timeline, he worked backwards with 1335, 1290 and 1260 from the Feast of Trumpets 2011. Then, he claims, God revealed to him that we have all got it wrong and, in fact, Jesus will return at Pentecost. This actually fits, because Pentecost was the day that the two loaves, with leaven, were to be waved before the Lord. This signifies the resurrection of sinners when Jesus returns.
Weinland Observer
Thanks for your response. But the problem with Ron Weinland is not as simple as you say. It is not simply a case of all his prophecies shifting by 8 months.
He was very specific on page 117/118 of ‘2008 God’s Final Witness” when he said:
“The first powerful event of the Seventh Seal will result in wide-spread destruction over the United States and beyond her border into Canada……there will be much death when this event occurs. Most of it will be the death of animals and birds, but also a large number of people will die – into the tens of thousands”.
With his latest timeline, the Seventh Seal supposedly opened way back on Nov 14th 2008 and the first trumpet blew on Dec 14th. Now he seems to be quietly ignoring this prophecy and talks about some unknown time in the future when the second trumpet will blow with nuclear devices going off in USA port cities.
This is just one example of several predictions from his book that have not happened.
For me, the ‘50th truth’ remains an interesting puzzle and, yes, I am interested enough in what he has to say in the Oct 10th sermon regarding ‘time, times and half a time’ (mentioned in Dan 12 v 7 and also Rev 12 v 4).
Hi Mal. The first trumpet will still have a great deal of power as it happens. When it talks about what happens when the first trumpet sounds, the Bible states :And there followed followed by what is stated. Ron states this is prophetic in what will happen as a result of the next 3 trumpets and up to the fifth trumpet. What I understand from this is that when it’s all said and done, the US will be conquered with a third of the animal life destroyed. Also, for the second trumpet Ron stated that 1/3 of all the oceans and water wouldn’t have to be ruined but that 1/3 of every area in which a weapon went off would. There was a time when I didn’t believe Ron. This was after the fast. I didn’t understand why something like that could work out to delay timing. Then understanding came to me a few months later. One thing you’ve got to agree on Ron. Whether you believe him or not, it’s hard to stop listening and reading to what he has to say.
P.S. I’m glad this forum is reactivating. Mike’s forum is as well. It all has to do with a couple of people who started posting.
WO: It was South Africa that I contacted. You beat me to it! I’m glad you have been able to “meet” a few people I’ve got to run, but I’ll keep in touch Here. Have a good one. : )
Mal,
I agree that everything God says is important, and that there are depths in scripture that can be more clearly understood by the believer as he continues to study and grow in grace and knowledge.
Having said that, I strongly believe there are many things we will not fully understand until we get to heaven; as the Bible puts it, we “see thru a glass darkly”. Daniel’s prophecies tell us many things about the end times; this information was not given to his generation, but to the one existing at the end of the “last days”. I do think we are that generation, but I do not agree that these prophecies are designed to tell us “when” Jesus will return, rather, they tell us what events will take place during the tribulation, and the length of time those events will last.
The NT is clear in telling us emphatically that no one knows the day Jesus will return, and every single person to date that has made the claim that the day has been revealed to them has been wrong; thereby proving the NT correct.
You are correct in stating Mr. Weinland was very specific in both his written and spoken prophecies and that cannot be overlooked. He is now trying to “rewrite” the prophecies and push the timeline back and that is absolutely unacceptable. You are wrong, though, that he didn’t blame God for the misinformation; I heard the sermon where he said that. Later, he said it was his own misunderstanding; his story has evolved over time.
Most false teachers are not teaching everything falsely. They say many things that are right. They often say things that click with their listeners, or claim to know things other teachers don’t know. What people fail to realize is the false portion of their teachings taints all of it, that teacher has proven he is not getting his understanding from the Holy Spirit and he should be avoided completely. He has been deceived and has become a deceiver. We need to heed the Bible’s warnings about such men.
Hi Mal,
I see that we agree on many basics so we can talk without constantly going around in circles.
The fast at the end of January was very important. It tested many, even within the Church, who wanted to see immediate action, so to speak. If you would listen to the sermons on Jonah and Esther that led up to the fast you may understand better. My personal opinion, because it hasn’t been stated, is that the fast allowed for a quieter time at the beginning of the 3 1/2 years before the second trumpet blows. It could well last until the 1st “time” is over and even beyond that. Ron will give more about on the Last Great Day. Matthew 24:22 may also shed some light on this. Traditionally, we have thought that this was referring to the shortness of 3 1/2 years but it is possible that God has shortened the duration of the trumpets on the front end for the sake of the elect and in answer to the prayers and fasting of His people. “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”
Hi Angel
Thanks for your response.
I am not promoting Ron Weinland as his prophecies appear to be falling apart. But the fact remains that Scripture does tell us that shortly before the return of Christ, God will empower two witnesses. When someone comes along with a reasonably high profile like Weinland, particularly at this point in history (end of 6000 years), I consider they deserve a fair hearing. Even if they say a few things that do not sit well with our traditional understanding. Just maybe, a few of us have got some things wrong.
People often use Jesus’ words that “nobody knows the day or the hour” to write off Ronald Weinland or anyone else who would claim to know the date of Christ’s return.
For the following reasons I believe we CAN know the date of Christ’s return:
1) Jesus’ words were clearly true when He spoke them to His disciples, but we are now 2000 years further down the line.
2) Daniel was told the meaning of his prophecies was reserved for the ‘time of the end’, which is approx now.
3) Amos 3:7 says “God does nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets”.
4) The Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess 5:1-6 “But concerning the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. For when they say “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. BUT YOU, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS SO THAT THIS DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. THEREFORE, LET US NOT SLEEP, AS OTHERS DO, BUT LET US WATCH AND BE SOBER.”
It also makes complete sense to me that God would link Christ’s return with HIS Festivals. The festivals which we in the Christian church keep (Christmas, Easter etc) are pagan based and contain no information about His salvation plan.
rw followers (and some other faiths) believe that the observation of the sabbath on sunday vs saturday is the mark of the beast.
however, i’ve never heard how this effects anyones ability to buy or sell products or services without observing the proper day as revelations states it would.
this is why i believe the mark is a physical mark on a persons hand or head as the bible states.
Yes, I too recommend the sermons on the fast fasting For Humility along with the Estar sermons.
Mal, I see you know that the traditional observances, Easter, Christmas, etc are incorrect. Why do you still hold to Traditional Christianity as some posts indicated you did? Not trying to change you, just trying to understand.
Todd, when you look back in history you will realize that the lives of many under the church of Rome depended on their beliefs. While other religions such as muslims welcomed varying oppinions and allowed Science to flourish the Catholic Church hanged the scientist, believed it knew science better than the scientist did, and rejected the open mind. This I did not learn from Ron. This I knew at an even younger age, 10 or 11..
rev 13:16-17
and he causeth ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive the mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
w/o….key word….ALL
at no time in history has ALL people been unable to buy or sell without the “mark”
furthermore, at no time in history has technology been closer to being able to achieve this than now….and getting closer every day.
so w/o, suppose the world government (that is seemingly working it’s way into our current reality) does implement a law that requires a mark on your right hand or forehead, what would your decision be given your current belief in the mark?
If this were to happen I would believe it. I in no way disbelieve that a New World Order is being created. This is one thing both you and I have in common. We believe that a new world order is being created. I do not doubt this and God doesn’t give this revelation. This is physical, not spiritual. Therefor it is a matter of critical thinking at work to prove this.
“at no time in history has ALL people been unable to buy or sell without the “mark””
Senate Bill S.1261 – The PASS Act
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-1261
The implications of which are “revelatory.”
yes, God does give this revelation….in revelations.
Schumer Pushes National ID Card for All Workers
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/us_immigration_employers/2009/07/21/238406.html
this is only for the US right now…but, you can see where it’s going.
Mal,
Although I agree with the “basic” teachings of Christianity, there are many things being taught and done today in the churches that I don’t agree with. I have never found a church, or another human being for that matter, with whom I agree on every point. That’s not what I’m looking for, nor do I think that any church in existence or any human being on this planet has the Bible or end time events all figured out.
The Bible tells us to be like-minded, not that we should share a brain. It tells us we will have differences on issues that don’t pertain to salvation but that we should not despise each other, have contentions, or divide over them. My thoughts pertaining to end times are based on what I have read and studied, and I’m not afraid to embrace traditional understanding or any other understanding that lines up with scripture.
Jesus Himself said no one knows the time of His return; this is an important statement that cannot be brushed aside. There’s no indication the Two Witnesses will reveal the date of Jesus’ return, their message appears to be directed toward unbelievers, giving them a final opportunity to repent. Mr. Weinland and his wife in no way fit the description of these Two Witnesses, either in his ability to prophesy accurately or in supernatural abilities. Jesus said His miracles testified as to Who sent Him, so we are not out of line to expect the same from anyone claiming to be the TW.
When I look at the verses that say no one knows the day, I take them at face value, they’re very clear. Two thousand years down the line, is it possible God could reveal the day? It’s possible, I just doubt it, because I see no indication anywhere in scripture, in context, that tells me God intends to do this. The verses you and others have shared do not convince me because they’re usually taken out of context, however, I also find no verse that directly states He will not reveal this at some point. Regardless of what anyone thinks, God can do what He wants; including reveal the day, so I don’t argue that point, only that I see more evidence in scripture that tells me He has no such intention, and the fact that every person who has claimed to know the day to date has been wrong seems to bear that out.
The question is, are we so desperate to know that we will accept a false prophet if we like the things he’s saying? The message that I see concerning Jesus’ return is that we need to be READY, and we do not have to know the day He’s coming back to do that.
Todd,
You’ve brought up some very good points, and I thought your question regarding how one would respond if offered or pressured to take a mark in order to buy/sell was pertinent. As we know, this hasn’t happened yet, so those who don’t believe the mark is physical haven’t been put to the test, but at least we know that if they were confronted with it they know what the right decision should be.
Todd, I have read scripture supporting a planned New World Order even before I learned what I know now. I will not say it isn’t in the Bible as it clearly is. Something against the kings of the erth marching together against the Lord. I still hold that the alliance that gathers together against God’s army of 144000 will be the NWO.
Angel, I respect your study. This is all you can do. Continue to reject what you hear if it doesn’t match up with what is true in your view. Never believe something as true until you do thurrough research. I follow this advice by the way. Make sure you understand people’s oppinions. I often understand that which I don’t believe. I quoted this in Mike’s forum, paraphrasing. “You don’t have to believe something in order to understand it but you should understand something before you believe it.”
Hi Charity. I just realized when I stated South Africa has my info that it was on the site already and hasn’t been deleted although it was awaiting moderation a while ago. Feel free to contact me. I can understand if you don’t want to and you have a good reason if that’s the case. I would love to know why you won’t email me though. Again, I don’t mind. Keep in mind that although I have a few more people that contact me now you’re the first one I contacted and I won’t forget you. It’s not like I want to hear from you any less or anything like that.
Hi WO: I would love to e-mail you but it is the policy of the Church not to have personal contact with minors without the written permission of the parents involved. I spoke to my elder about you and he asked me specifically not to contact you personally. I assume that e-mails would be considered personal contact. The Church must be very careful due to legal factors, especially during the time that we are now in. I gave him my word that I wouldn’t have personal contact with you for this reason. South Africa has my information as well. We are in contact by e-mail so it would be possible to get a message to me and vice versa if necessary and we can chat on this blog.
I am so glad that South Africa has set you up with some others to talk to. You have a great deal to offer them and I know that you will benefit from the communication too.
It won’t be long now until everything is made right and we will be able to talk about the Truth face to face without worry of being accused of wrong motives. Lord speed that day! : )
Hi Charity. From a message I sent earlier I have a feeling that the elder who you mentioned probably knows who I am, and by that I mean my name. That’s only if they keep their messages, which Ron stated didn’t happen. I remember a while ago that Ron stated the book requests and any other information that was given was never allowed to be stored. I do understand what you mean about personal contact especially because of the stuff on the other blog. Do you think that what I managed to make happen with South Africa is okay? I have been added by a fairly large number of people and I understand that this is good but I am wondering if it would be wise not to have everyone possible on my list. I’m just saying that although they wouldn’t mind me meeting some people recommended online, they might not fly with me adding the whole church on facebook. If you don’t mind helping me out with this I would appreciate it. Since you and South Africa know a bit about me generally, could you send her amessage and figure out what I should do here and just get her to send me a message? Thanks. Not trying to blame anyone or anything, just realizing that even I didn’t think about that when I should have.
Weinland Observer,
I don’t study to see if God’s word matches my views; rather, my views are based on what I see in the Word. Likewise, I will reject anything I hear that doesn’t line up with the Word. I am very interested in hearing other people’s opinions, that’s why I’m here. If all I ever did was talk to people who agree with me I would not have an opportunity to learn what others believe; if I don’t allow my views to be challenged I would never know if I have missed something in scripture or if there is anything I need to correct.
I’m not sure about needing to understand something before you believe it, I think it’s important to be able to explain what you believe but when it comes to the Bible there are things we are asked to believe even if we don’t understand it. That’s where faith comes in. For example, the biblical account of creation. I can explain what I believe and why, but not how He did it. I don’t believe God requires us to understand everything He’s told us, but He does expect us to believe it.
The Bible tells us to test all things and hold fast to that which is good. When I hear someone teach something that doesn’t line up with scripture I reject it, plain and simple, in accordance with the Bible’s instruction. When I hear someone make a prophecy that fails, I reject it, again in accordance with the biblical command. God knows all and He is never wrong, nor would He ever deliberately give one of His prophets false information. A prophecy that failed was not from God, period. This is biblical. A prophet that makes a prophecy that fails is a false prophet, and should be avoided. This is also biblical.
Mr. Weinland wants you to believe he simply misunderstood, and has now revised his prophecies. He wants you to overlook the biblical test of a prophet and accept his revised prophecies. The biblical prophets never got it wrong, they never said ‘gee, I thought that’s what God said, let me try again, I’ll get it right this time’. There’s a reason that never happened, and it’s because the prophet must be right the first time, every time.
Mr. Weinland himself said in a radio interview that if what he prophesied didn’t happen, he would step down as prophet; but he didn’t keep his word. He refused to repent of being presumptuous. These are not the actions of a true prophet of God.
These are not just my views, this is what I see in scripture.
Well put angel.
God is not the author of confusion, and if anything – the mis-statements published by Mr. Weinland in a book that he has stated is prophecy ceertainly would cause confusion and a lot fo unbelief on the part of those whom he was trying to reach by publishing it.
God would not give a prophet a false timeline, and if a person stating to be a prophet gave a timeline stating it was inspired by God and it did not come to pass . . . well, the conclusion should be clear.
Folks are no longer likely to believe him on any large scale.
I believe we live in interesting times, where the technology and the will of those governing make the events of ‘the end times’ a very real possibility . . . there are many people out in the world who prognosticate a great many things these days. Some of which are accurate – some of which aren’t. I feel quite awake these days, but am not a member of Mr. Weinland’s congregation.
Am I deceived? Depends on who you ask I guess. I imagine Mr. weinland would say that I am . . . but – that’s not surprising.
Hi WO: The elder that I’m referring to had not heard of you at the time I e-mailed him. That was very early on in our discussions, probably around the beginning of July or before. He may or may not have heard of anything since then. If I find out anything I can let you know.
I’m not sure exactly what you would like me to pass on to South Africa. Have you just been set up with the Facebook group or are individuals e-mailing you? Do you have South Africa’s e-mail address? I have chosen not to be a part of the Facebook group but I know several people who are on it and they have made some friends in the Church that way. I don’t have anything against it personally, I just don’t have the time to keep up with a lot of people and prefer to keep in touch with those who God puts into my life more directly. That way the relationships are deeper, if you know what I mean … a few close friends as opposed to a lot of casual acquaintances. I would be glad to pass on a message to South Africa for you if you are unable to make contact personally but I need to know what it is that you would like to see happen and what exactly your concerns are.
riee64: Did you actually read the book, “2008 God’s Final Witness”? There is no timeline given in it. Everything is going according to God’s plan.
Hi again Weinland Observer and Charity
One of COG-PKG fundamentals is to obey God by keeping His weekly Sabbath as well as God’s other Holy Days as given in Leviticus 23.
When you study the Old Testament you see that God’s calendar is based on lunar cycles which the ancient Israelites followed by keeping watch for the new moon. The true Sabbath is, therefore, the 7th day of the lunar week.
Mankind has gone away from God’s lunar calendar to a pagan solar calendar. This means that God’s true Sabbath does not fall on Saturday every week.
Can you explain why RW’s church finds it ok to worship God every Saturday according to the pagan solar calendar ? It would not be difficult to determine the true Sabbath according to God’s lunar calendar.
Doesn’t the same apply to the Holy Days of Leviticus 23 ? The dates these days fall on our calendar today will not be the same as they would be according to God’s lunar calendar ?
This would also affect the ‘50th’ truth wouldn’t it ? Because the 1335 days between Trumpets 2008 and Pentecost 2012
is based on the solar calendar not God’s lunar calendar.
If you’re not sure of the answer to this I would appreciate it if you could find out from COG-PKG.
Thanks
Yep – I did. Thing is though – it’s past 2008, well into 2009 and despite some specific timelines that were given by Mr. Weinland in intervierws and Sermons – things still haven’t happened yet.
I don’t doubt his sincerity, I just doubt the claims he makes about himself and Mrs. Weinland. Do I need to believe him in order to benefit from Christ’s sacrifice? I suppose that depends on who you ask.
Mal: If you go to the PKG website in the FAQ section, you will find some related material under the heading, Calendar – God’s.
riee: There is much info in the FAQ section that addresses your concerns as well. You can start with the section under the heading “Books”. Other than that, I have already addressed my understanding of the timeline shift.
Hi Charity,
In your post of July 22 you say:
“riee64: Did you actually read the book, “2008 God’s Final Witness”? There is no timeline given in it. Everything is going according to God’s plan.”
In Weinland’s book “2008 God’s Final Witness”, he says:
p. 4: “The proof of the validity of my first book, and now this one, is in the timing and the destruction that follows, exactly as both books describe.”
p.51: “So what is the truth? This book is the truth! Yes, this book is the truth. God is about to prove that this book is telling the truth!”
p.57: “I am one of those [two end-time] prophets. That which I am telling you is not of me; it is from the God of Abraham – the Almighty God of the Universe.”
p. 61: “When the Seventh Seal is opened, the physical type of duality will begin just as the spiritual type was first accomplished upon God’s Church in the opening of the first four seals. At the opening of the Seventh Seal, the fulfilment of a physical duality will begin exactly when devastation strikes the United States first.”
p. 111: “The question about how God has revealed His truth to me is a fair one. The answer that I am who I say I am will be given by the events described in both books coming true exactly as I have described. This will be the proof that I am God’s end-time witness and spokesman.”
p. 116: The first four trumpet blasts will announce four powerfully destructive events that will bring about the total collapse of the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and some countries of Western Europe.” “The First Trumpet blast will occur quickly after the Seventh Seal of Revelation is opened by Jesus Christ”.
p.117: “God is in control of the exact timing of everything that is to take place. “
In summary, Weinland is telling us that his book “2008 God’s Final Witness” is the truth because it is God’s truth as revealed by the Almighty God of the Universe. Nothing could be more emphatic than that. He says that God is in control of the exact timing of everything that is to take place and that the timing and the destruction that follows will be exactly as his book describes. This will be God’s way of proving that the book is telling the truth, thus proving the validity of his book.
So, does Weinland give any details in this book about specific destructive events happening according to an exact revealed timeline controlled by God? Yes, he does.
On page 244 Weinland gives a very specific prophecy complete with timeline relating to the huge event which will mark the first significant stage of end-time events. In doing so he spells out God’s timing with a very clear and unequivocal timeline. This is what he says:
“By the fall of 2008, the United States will have collapsed as a world power, or it will have begun its collapse and no longer exist as an independent nation within six months after that time”.
If we assume that Weinland is referring to the northern hemisphere’s Meteorological Fall, he is saying unequivocally that by the end of November 2008 the United States will have collapsed as a world power, or it will have begun its collapse and within six months from that date, i.e. by the end of May 2009 at the very latest, it will no longer exist as an independent nation.
In other words, according to Weinland’s book “2008 God’s Final Witness”, it was the Almighty God of the Universe who revealed to him the timeline of the prophetic truth that by the end of May 2009, the United States would have totally collapsed. In effect, according to Weinland’s own claims as cited above, he was confidently relying on the absolute truth of this prophecy and the exact timeline of the happening of the event as supposedly pre-ordained by God, to prove the validity of his book and to prove that he is who he says he is.
Don (Doherty)
Don: Continuing on page 244 from where you left off it says, “There is a marginal, six month window of time that God has not yet revealed concerning this specific moment in time.” My thoughts? Could this have something to do with the two day fast that the Church held at the end of January, where they cried out to God for more time before the sounding of the second trumpet so that more people could be saved?
rlee64,
I agree that people on a large scale will probably not continue to believe Mr. Weinland, however, if we can help the ones who still do to open their eyes I believe it’s a worthwhile effort.
Not to pick on Charity, but so often when Mr. Weinland’s followers are questioned they don’t point you to the Bible, but to his books, website and sermons. That always raises a red flag to me because I would never refer anyone to anything other than the Bible.
Don,
Well said!
Charity,
It sounds like you’re trying to draw a parallel between Jonah and end-time prophecies. These are two very different situations (duh). Jonah was reluctant to deliver God’s message of impending judgment to the Ninevites because he felt they deserved to be punished and he knew that if they heard it and repented God would grant them mercy. It wasn’t about giving them more time to repent, they had no time, it was do or die. From the time Jonah delivered the message they had 40 days to take action.
God has given the world 2,000 years to repent since He delivered His message regarding the coming judgment. The warning has been given and God’s prophets did not give the timing of when it would come, just that we need to be ready.
In my opinion, to suggest a fast has caused God to delay end time events is highly unlikely; first of all, it took place after Mr. Weinland’s prophecies failed; second, it also took place after the excuses he offered for why they failed weren’t being widely received, he was losing followers.
Angel, God didn’t delay the events because of the fast at the last minute. It wasn’t like “Oh I see a fast. Maybe I’ll just delay some of this destruction.” Ron specifically stated that it was God who revealed to him that a fast was to occur and that there are many ways in which events can happen while all of them still happen. The Oct. 10 sermon will explain so much about this. Ron states that there is a shifting in time, times, and half a time that was allowed because of the fast. It’s still happening, but it has been changed around. My oppinion remains as I have posted on Mike’s blog with my first post on June 20, that the new order is times, time, and half a time.
Times = 720 days, maybe the decline of the various Israelite nations.
Time = 360 days: European rule.
Half a time as Ron already stated = Russia and China coming together along with the other events from trumpet 6 and 7.
Also, you stated that the first place to check for truth is always the Bible. That depends on where you are in how much truth you know. If you tell this to someone who doesn’t believe the Bible or what it teaches without tradition added to it, this won’t help too much. The first step is discovering that the Bible is 100% from God as without that knollege there is no sence in saying “Look to it first.” The next step is realizing that you need to believe what it says and not tradition.
Some say prophesy isn’t the main part of the Bible. I can’t comment on that. However I can say that prophesies were what convinced me of the Bible’s volidity, both recent prophetic events and those of the past.
Hi Charity,
I must confess that I’ve tried many times in the past to determine what Weinland might have had in mind when he referred to “a marginal, six month window of time”. I can see only two possibilities. Either he meant that “this specific moment in time” referred to an unspecified date within the six-month period from the end of November 2008 to the end of May 2009. Or he may have been giving himself a further six months of latitude beyond May 2009 to the end of November 2009 for the final collapse of the United States.
But he promised that clarification would be given, and tells us when to expect that clarification, for he goes on to say on page 244,”This will be revealed some time soon after the distribution of this book begins.” He indicates in the preceding paragraph that such distribution began late summer/early fall of 2006. As far as I’m aware, his promise to specifically clarify this point has not been kept, and no such revelatory announcement was made in late summer/early fall 2006 – now going on for three years ago. According to Weinland that clarification would have pinpointed the “specific moment of time” of the final collapse of the U.S. What do you make of my assessment?
As I see it, this prophecy given to Weinland by the Almighty God of the Universe gives an explicitly expressed timeline of end of May 2009 at the very latest for the collapse of the US, followed by what seems to be a vaguely expressed possibility of a further six month’s extension at the most.
If this is so, then the very latest possible deadline/timeline for the collapse of the United States has to be, according to page 244 of Weinland’s book “2008 God’s Final Witness”, THE END OF NOVEMBER 2009. Would you agree with that? Should we mark our diaries for the end of November?
Anything Weinland might use to justify an extension of that event beyond the end of November 2009 (including the ‘50th Truth’ and the 2-day fast by his Church at the end of January) would mean axiomatically that his book did not, after all, contain “the truth”.
But we should bear in mind that on page 244 Weinland also says, “When this book is published at the end of summer of 2006, there will be a maximum time of two years remaining before the world will be plunged into the worst time of all human history”. Is this not also a very explicit timeline given by him in his book? Clearly that can only mean that by the end of summer of 2008, the world would already have been “plunged into the worst time of all human history”. Given the huge crises of the two world wars of the 20th century and the huge economic crisis of the late 1920s/early 1930s, can you honestly say that by the end of summer of 2008 (i.e. by the END OF AUGUST LAST YEAR) the world had already been “plunged into the worst time of all human history”? I know that Weinland is arguing that the current economic downturn will prove to be globally catastrophic in the long term. But the prophecy is expressed in very vivid and dramatic terms. He is not just saying that the end of summer of 2008 would mark a relatively unevenful beginning of the worst time of all human history even if it wasn’t very evident to us at the time. I honestly don’t think that is the sort of scenario he had in mind when he wrote that. He says “plunged” – a term that has a strong sense of immediacy with explosive and highly dramatic overtones. Effectively, he has already admitted that he got this wrong, by saying in one of his posts that God’s Church used to believe that there would be no gap in time between the sounding of the trumpet and the beginning of visible catastrophes – translation: “I got it wrong” – conclusion: what’s in his book isn’t all “truth” after all, and certainly can’t all be divine revelation as he adamantly claims.
In my email to Mr Weinland of March 26, 2008 one of my predictions was that end-time events would not begin as he’d predicted and that he would be obliged to have recourse to “divine revelations” to try to justify changes to his previously announced timelines (specifically including those on page 244 of his book). The “50th Truth”, and his claim to have divine knowledge that “God is holding back events” were precisely the sort of things I predicted in my email, for they are the sort of things one would expect as a necessary response to the non-happening of predicted events. I further predict that Weinland will have yet further “divine revelations” of various types which will seek to justify further delays to, or non-happening of, events as previously predicted by him. I’m sure he is plotting and planning a variety of future responses as I write. I further predict that Jesus Christ will not return in 2011 or 2012, as Weinland has variously predicted. But time will tell…
Don (Doherty)
Weinland Observer,
I was responding to Charity’s comment that perhaps it was due to the fast that God delayed the timing. My point was the fast didn’t happen until after the prophecies had failed, so the purported delay couldn’t have happened as a result of the fast.
I realize that you’re choosing to accept Mr. Weinland’s statement that God told him to call for a fast and the rest of his explanation, but understand that you’re taking his word about this “shifting in time”; what you don’t seem to be taking into consideration is that the timing he’s put on this is pretty much the big deal here. What I mean is, these prophecies did not originate with Mr. Weinland; God revealed them to John. What Mr. Weinland has done is flesh them out and update them with his own spin, and by that I mean the parts that you don’t find in John’s prophecies; the part of the prophecies that is generating so much interest is the fact that he claimed to know the timing and set a date.
The events told us by John will happen, of that I have no doubt. What I do doubt is the parts that have been added by Mr. Weinland. He added the timing and was wrong.
My comment about looking to the Bible for truth was directed toward conversations regarding biblical issues, which is what we’re having here. Traditions are not always bad, newer teachings can be just as wrong and destructive as any wrong teachings within traditions. The Bible doesn’t condemn traditions as a whole, only those that men hold above the truth of God’s word. Any teaching, whether traditional or new, MUST line up with scripture. The Bible says we are to test all things. Test them how? Paul said the Bereans looked to the scriptures to see if what he was saying was true.
Personally I think it’s fine if prophecy convinced you God’s word is true. Just stay away from failed prophecies; anyone can do that and God has told us such prophecies are not from Him.
WELL SAID ANGEL.
As stated in my previous posting, a key fundamental of Ron Weinland and his COG-PKG is that they keep God’s ‘true’ Sabbath every Saturday and not Sunday as the ‘traditional’ Christian church does. They say this is one of the reasons why RW’s church is (quote) the ‘only one that God is working with’.
IN FACT, THERE IS COMPELLING EVIDENCE THAT SATURDAY IS ALSO NOT GOD’S TRUE SABBATH. This is because the Old Testament tells us that God uses the phases of the moon for His calendar, which defines His Sabbaths, and does not use mankind’s solar calendar. I highly recommend the following website for a compelling and clear explanation of this.
http://lunarsabbath.info/index.html
The words below are reproduced from the introductory page of the website:-
“Lunar Sabbaths not only can be conclusively proven from Scripture but Mathematically, Historically, Scientifically, and from Nature itself.”
“The evidence provided will prove that the true weekly seventh day Sabbath of the Scriptures is always observed on the same days of the Moon each month, and that is on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th.”
“The author offers a 10,000 DOLLAR REWARD to anyone who can pinpoint a weekly Sabbath on any other day than by the moon.”
“We have pinpointed ( in Scripture) seventy two (72) weekly Sabbath days, observed by the holy men of old, and every one of them is on either the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th day of the Moon, without exception. The reason for this is that they never counted the New Moon worship day when counting out the six workdays.”
………………………………………………………………………………….
If correct, the implications of this for RW and COG-PKG are surely profound ? It would mean COG-PKG is also not correctly observing God’s Sabbath and would, therefore, totally undermine RW’s own claim that God directly speaks to his church with ‘truths’ through their ‘Sabbath Day’ meetings.
The website above also explains in detail how the date for the Feast of Pentecost in our calendar today is wildly adrift.
Again, if correct, that would totally invalidate the ‘50th Truth’ about the date of Christ’s return being Pentecost 2012, since the span of days from Trumpets 2008 to Pentecost 2012 would no longer fit Daniel’s prophecy of 1335.
Mal –
Is there any Christian Denomination that recognizes the lunar Sabbath?
I certainly believe that Ronald Weinland is a part of Biblical prophecy, namely that he and other false prophets were foretold to come, and even deceive the very elect!
Mr. Weinland is not the first, nor will he be the last false prophet. We know this, simply because the Bible not only tells us, but warns us to be on guard for this very thing. R.W. is a part, a small part, of the fulfilling of prophecy, but not in the way that he claims.
Christ didn’t warn us about false prophets, ministers, and even false Christ’s for nothing. Satan is clever and he counterfeits everything of God, including creating false prophets. Satan knows that by allowing God’s people to believe a man like R.W., they could easily become confused and discouraged and give up, and fail to ‘endure to the end’!
Even though he’s not a prophet, Mr. David Pack, from the Restored Church of God, said that he wouldn’t be surprised if R.W. ends up naming his wife as the second witness! About a year later that happened, and it should be realized by God’s people that God doesn’t allow women to speak in the church, let alone as one of the two greatest prophets in all of history!
Ronald Weinland indeed is a part of prophecy, but he is no prophet. Let us pray that any who comes his way, or is currently caught up with his false counterfeit teachings, that they will have the courage not to get involved with him, or if they are now in his grasp, to get out and continue on in doing God’s work before the beast power emerges in all it’s horror very soon now!
rlee64
Very few I suspect.
I did a web search and found the site below. The two web links
contain information about the lunar Sabbath similar to the other website, stating that God’s true Sabbath is not every Saturday but can occur on any day of the week on our solar calendar.
http://church-of-yehovah.org/pdf/lesson7.pdf
http://church-of-yehovah.org/pdf/lesson8.pdf
rlee64
My first response to you has not been posted for some reason.
Try a web search on church-of-yehovah
Lesson 7 and Lesson 8 of their ‘Bible Course’ shows that they recognise the lunar Sabbath.
Thank you Mal.
Mal,
I don’t know anything about this organization, COY, I looked at their website but didn’t see info on this; Who do they believe Jesus is? I saw several pages where they go into detail about the “shocking” origins of holidays, but none that focus on Jesus.
Hi Angel,
I didn’t know about them until I did a web search.
Having had a look at their ‘Bible Course’, I can see that they believe Jesus (Yeshua) is the Messiah, the Son of God, who died and rose again and is alive today making intercession for us as our Saviour. They recognise the importance of the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost and they are expecting Jesus to return in the near future with all power and glory.
They stress the importance of focussing on God’s festivals and God’s calendar instead of pagan festivals like Christmas and Easter.
In the same way as COG-PKG, they don’t recognise the Trinity.
I wasn’t promoting this church, only answering rlee64 that they recognise the lunar Sabbath.
Glad to hear you’re not promoting them as it appears they don’t recognize the deity of Jesus.
Thanks for your response!
If anyone has doubts about the deity of Jesus, one of the best and most comprehensive proofs can be found at:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com
Then go to ‘Names of G-d’ on left hand side.
Scroll down to ‘Names Revealed in the Brit Chadashah’
Scroll down to ‘5. Yeshua is Adonai’
Citizen X: I am one of the people you introductory passage applies. I know in my spirit that the scripture of Ephesians 2:19-22 was my awakening-calling, while I was taking in Mr Weinlands first publication.The Prophesied End-Time.Yesterday, I had a coffey with Wayne & Chris Mathews , lovely people.They did detect my knowlegde of the very slow or stationary , quiet and or silent Thunders.I revealed to them I occasionally read two Biblical prophetic current affairs publications whom the leader should not still be around. Gerrald Flurry was the name confirmed back to me.I do read The Good News magazine and the Philidelphia Trumpet from time to time.I know PKG are being cautious with me.They want me to stay at home and not fellowship with them for a few weeks in person and listen to sermons on the web.I guess I am what is called a fence sitter.I seem to be quite comfortable at the moment,there are no palings.When the two end-time prophets make them selves known we who are heedful will be able to see that there is no error in their word as the word will be the truth.The truth will reveal the scattered remnant of the true Church Of God and to whom the real servants will be.God would not lie to his End-Time prophets for them to come in to error,controversy and ridicule.If there was no reasonable doubt, we would see You-Tube postings and hits increase in enormous magnitudes of the validity of the power of truth.It does concern me that Mr Weinland has not received the recognition that every one expects.
Thank you, Mal!
Mal, since your post, I’ve been reading about the lunar sabbath. It’s an interesting theory. Have you read about it much? I’m a little confused though. If you’ve read up on it, maybe you can help clarify something for me?
Ronald never knew me, therefore he is not one of my witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXd2ynQ5I_o
When America is destroyed, do not turn an ear toward the words of men neither harden your hearts to God’s correction. Read the KJV bible yourself, pray and bridle your tongue; if you trust the words of ANY man over the words of God, you will fall with the men you trusted.
Whosoever falls with false teachers and prophets will remain in the place where they fell.
The enemies of God shall be as dung.
-Elijah
I have not read nor listened to any sermons by Ron Weiland. I KNOW one thing.
No man knows the time when these things will take place not even Jesus himself.
When you look at the fig tree know that it is near.
Simply put, love your neighbor as yourself, Love God above all things. Do not fear. Through Jesus Christ we are saved.
What more do you need?
Every mans eternal bread and water in Jesus. Thats whats important, not a prophet. I know every1 is driven by the need to know. Who are these witnesses. The answer is seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all His righteousness. For many of you, it will not be revealed until you see them. For many of you, will see them and yet not know them, just as it was with lord Jesus Christ. They will not be American or from any Western country, nor the east. For the purpose of God to be fulfilled, none of you will know. Ron Weinland came to declare himself, but as I said last year on this blogg, he is not a amongst the two. It was his great desire to carry this burden, but it was not given to him by our fther in heaven, rather by his own carnal understanding. Stand fast bretheren.. Seek ye first the kingdom. Love the Lord your God. Go ye into the world. Thats what the Lord is calling you to do. Do not waste your tie looking for prophets. Our eternal sacrifice was already given to us. His name is Jesus. We who believe and are filled with the spirit, all have the eternal life. You will never find the two, until God revelas them. not even I amongst them know the time. God is still preparing us. stand fast in prayer, for the devil is preparing a great war against God. stand fast in prayer, for a great tribulation will come. no one knows the time. not even the angels. It will not be revealed fo now. neither will the two.. No man knows who they are. Although they walk the earth, and know the burden placed upon them for the sake of the Glory of Christs, and the preperation of his coming. i speak again to as i spoke to ypu last year. If you are consider yourself a prophet or spiritual, you will persieve who I am. you will also percieve it is of little importance who we are. Speak to God. Seek Him. We are not hear for our own glory. God is still preparing us. Seek God only. You will never find His two prophets. God bless you all
Nice one Lamp.I tend to agree.We all need to search for the True Body Of Christ in this last Church age of Laodicea.The majority of us may not be able to find the true Church even when the Two Witnesses start displaying their powers.By this timeline in Revelation the Tribulation will have started to wreak it’s devastating havoc apon all of the worlds populations. Hopefully we will be made aware of the Church these Two Witnesses come out of,that it will be obvious.If not, the only option we have is in obedience to all requirements,as to have Jesus’s favour and devine protection to escape all these things.
Roger,
Grace is unmerited favor; undeserved and freely given. We obey Jesus because we love Him, but we can’t earn His favor by doing so because our own righteousness is like filthy rags to Him.
Nowhere in Revelation does it mention the Witnesses coming out of a church, in fact there is no mention of the (true) church at all once the Tribulation begins; only the world-wide idolatrous false religion which will arise during that time. What it does say is that believers will be killed. The only ones who will be divinely protected during this time are the 144,000 Jews.
Our only hope is Jesus; His death on the cross is what paid for our sins – nothing else can save us. Putting our faith in Him now is what gives us the peace Jesus promised us.
Angel:You misinterpret me.So quick to rebuke?Have you ever red (Mystery Of The Ages) ? Does (John 6:44) mean freely given? 144000 Jews?Are these Jews from the tribes of Judah,Benjamin and Levi or the northern 10 tribes?The 144000 mite not be Jews but Israelites. The two Witnesses must come out of the true body of Christ.God only works with the true remnant of the Church Jesus started in 31AD.He would not work out of any of the apostate splinters that were spewed out of his mouth apon the End of the Philidelphian area.The ones who judge are the ones that will be judged themselves?Those who are brought in controvecy with the enemies of the truth have to meet not only men,but Satan and his agents.I am sure you are aware of the term little flock ,which is very small.This flock is minuscule in size.The church of god is comprised of the 144000 “called out” from under Satan’s rule and deceptions of this world over the last six thousand years.(John 6:44) Only a few more will be awakened and called in the last church age of Laodicea in the present End-Times that we are now living in.I am aware of the history of the Church Of God and the tribes of Israel.I acknowledge that the very few last “called” are the remnant of Ephraim and Manasseh,the seeds of Jacob.Some people say that Nicodemus was saved.God reveals that as in Adam all die,even so the same “all” in Christ ,shall be made alive by a resurrection from the dead.(No one is saved,yet).The first resurrection is only for the( “called 144000 firstfruit,s” ) All others will be resurrected at The Great White Throne Judgment of (Revelation 20.) They all will be dead for the one thousand years while Jesus and the 144000 firstfruits are reigning under The Kingdom Of God here on Earth.The Gospel of Christ is only about this period of time when he will rule in Earth as it is in Heaven.Our Father thou art in Heaven hallowed the thy name it will be done in Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven.The Church Of God is called first to be trained by the first of the firstfruits’ that is ,”Jesus”.Jesus is the only one that has been fully begotten in spirit into God’s family,waved before the Father with out sin(Feast of Unleaven Bread) until the first resurrection.Most do not realize that we are not saved by the blood of Christ.You will read in (Romans 5:10) that we are reconciled to God the Father by the death of Christ,but we shall be saved by his life-by the resurrection.Jesus alone could make the sacrifice in payment of our past sins. But the world must look for salvation through his life after his resurrection.The Church is the betrothed Bride of Christ to be married to the son of God on his return,after the resurrection of the Church.The Church is in the process of training to become priests.co-saviors with Jesus in saving the world from his second coming to and including the second resurrection in Revelation 20.The hidden lost tribe of Israel’s seeds, the true Church where among the protestant majorities fleeing religious persecution from medieval Europe to the relative safety of the new world.Mr Stephen Mumford,a member of a sabbath-keeping Church in London,left England for Newport, Rhode Island.in 1664. By the mid 1800,vigorous new Sabbath-keeping congregations,raised up as a result of the preaching of William Miller,1831-1849.At Battle Creek,Michigan,in 1860,many thousand were persuaded to accept the beliefs of the followers of Ellen G White.They departed from the true name-the Church Of God. Instead of the true gospel,the Kingdom Of God,they substituted doctrines of Ellen G White,called “the shut-door policy,” “the investigative judgment,” a “2,300 day” doctrine and “the spirit of prophecy,” identifying Mrs.White as the Church’s prophet who actually set the Church’s doctrine.But in vain they do worship me,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9) God said through Moses: “Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here in this day,every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes”(Deuteronomy 12:8). And again: “Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them (Pagan religious customs)…and that thou inquire not after their Gods,saying,How did these nations serve their Gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord,which he hateth, have they done unto their Gods…”(Deuteronomy 12:30-31) The closer one get,s to the truth the harder Satan, works to corrupt and deceive by distorting the truth.Keeping and observing all God’s appointed Holy Times,Covenants and Festivals serves it’s purpose to make clear the awesome plan of God.Jesus came not to change times and laws but to perfect and fulfill them through the Sabbath,Passover,Unleaven Bread, ,Pentecost,Trumpets,Atonements, Feast of Tabernacles,Last Great Day.Follow God not Man.Keep an open mind.Test all things.All of Traditional Christianity is in error.There is only one Church Of God that Jesus started in 31AD.The only way to find out the true Church’s identity is through a “calling”(John 6:44) then obedience to the Holy Spirits guidance .This is where the trials and persecutions will increase as one gets ever nearer in understanding and conformance.I have not as yet found the true church,but I know I am getting close,down to around three or four possibilities.I pray that I will be successful.It will come down to the fruits that these few churches produce in dealing with them.Their fruits should be unblemished and ripe with no defects.I will not tithe again until I am beyond all reasonable doubt as to avoid further deceptions.Try not to get caught up in “Traditional Christianities”Paganistic dogma,it is orchestrated by Satan and his fallen angles.God bless: Roger.
roger,
all you need to do is focus on God, not on man.
His yoke is easy, His burden is light.
Not complicated or confusing.
(John14: 6) Jesus said to him.”I am the way and the truth,and the life.No one comes to the Father except through Me. Jesus begins and ends this passage by focusing on himself. Friends, salvation can be found in no other person or path. It cannot be found in philosophy, in science, in achievements, in wealth, in family, in humanism, in Buddha, in Mohammed, or in anyone or anything else. Our world presents many options and paths—some of which even sound convincing—but the only way to the Father is through Jesus. The only hope of a resurrection is found in the one who was resurrected. The only hope of eternal life is in the eternal one who is the life. And the only truth in this world is found in the person of Christ, who has revealed to us the mysteries of God’s redemptive plan.
Jesus Christ is not only the focal point of all of scripture, but he is the point on which all of history revolves about. You might enjoy talking about politics, but politics has no eternal significance. You might enjoy talking about sports, but sports has no eternal significance. You might enjoy talking about literature, but literature has no eternal significance. The only thing that has eternal significance in the history of mankind is Jesus Christ and the work that God had done and is doing through him. That is the bedrock of your faith—I urge you to stand upon it without wavering and without doubting when the winds of trial fill your days. Trust in Him, and Him alone, dear friends, even though the world would tell you otherwise. His yoke is easy,his burden is light? Does not Satan rule this world? Would he not try to deceive all of us truth seekers,especially in these here End-Times?We must try to overcome the Laodicean luke warmness (Revelation 3: 14-22) and fear God to strive for righteousness.
Roger,
you speak as if you believe your the only one who knows our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Yes, His yoke is easy and His burden is light. Math 11:30
Yes, the enemy will trip you up daily….why do you think we need our Lord and Savior Jesus?
Roger,
I think you misinterpret me, too. I was not rebuking you; rather I was encouraging you – to put your hope and faith in what Jesus did for you.
You asked if I had read MOTA; I read the Bible to find the Truth. HWA made failed prophecies so I would never look to any of his books to explain God’s word.
Rev. chapter 7 makes it very clear that the 144,000 are the children of Israel and what tribes they are from; it is very specific. This is a prophecy of a future event given to John by God; if the 144,000 are not exactly who John said they would be then this prophecy is incorrect.
I think you are very wise not to tithe at this point; some organizations place more importance on your money than on you, sad to say.
We may not agree on how we view scripture, but I see no reason why we can’t discuss it; the Bible says we should share the truth in love. When I read the Bible, I don’t look to other books to explain it to me and I don’t refer people to any other books. I’ve looked at some of the writings of HWA and Mr. Weinland, to be better informed of their teachings, but I find them filled with errors and not trustworthy. I would not trust the teachings of anyone who has made failed prophecies.
It appears you are looking for the perfect church. I know you said “true” church, but the body of Christ is made up of people, and they’re not perfect; no matter what group you join, there will be problems and there will be some teachings you won’t agree with – and if that group tries to force you, thru fear of hell, threats of disfellowship if you disagree or don’t comply with all their requirements, to accept their teachings – run for your life, that is the way of deception.
What I see in scripture regarding the law and grace is that we are saved by grace thru faith; the OT saints could not be saved by keeping the law, that’s why Jesus had to die. God will only accept the righteousness of Jesus for salvation, ours is as filthy rags. If you expect to be saved by keeping the law, you’ve already failed. God will not accept your works as payment for your sin.
The sacrifice of animals only covered sin, it was not sufficient to pay for it, and it had to be offered repeatedly because people sin all their lives. Because Jesus’ death paid for ALL of our sins, we are no longer condemned by them, that is the Good News of the Gospel!
The law is not good news for the one who hopes to be saved by it.
I wish you well in your search for truth; don’t settle for anything less!
Angel & Todd: Thank you both for your humbling understanding responses.I guess I need to convert a lot of the fear I have into faith.I read too much as a sercurity guard .Just finished Flurry’s book Raising the Ruins,which is PCOG;s interpretation of events of what happend to them, which does not mean they have automatically been given the reigns to the True Church Of God.Flurry and Pack have some great literature.On every Saturday Sabbath I listen to the sermons of David C Pack.I am aware the leaders of the splinters will come under constant attack.So one has to observe how well each of them handle adversity,the fruits they produce whilst under continuous mockery.
Roger,
There is no need for fear if you hold tight to the Bible; that is where you should put your faith – not in a group, not in other books. I have seen so many people deceived by a group’s literature; they become fascinated with their teachings and before you know it they’re putting their faith in those leaders, not in God, and they don’t even realize what’s happening to them.
Once they’ve hooked you with their teachings and convinced you they’re the “true church”; they will make you fearful to leave – this should set off bells, whistles and sirens because it’s the way cults operate.
It is one thing to choose to be part of a church; to fellowship, worship, pray, participate in ministries if God is calling you to that, etc.; it is quite another to be pressured not only to believe their teachings, but that all others are wrong, and that you must be part of their fellowship to be saved. Too often it is not your soul they’re concerned about, it’s your money.
A lot of these groups will try to convince you that “mockery” proves they have the truth. Using that logic, any group that has experienced mockery must have it, but the fact is that every religious group has been mocked by someone at one time or another. Mockery proves nothing. For that matter, a lot of the groups that cry “mockery” are doing the same exact thing to others, so by their reasoning wouldn’t that prove whoever they’re mocking has the truth?
A lot of cult members live upstanding, moral lives; if that proves they have the truth, then Mormons, JW’s, and a host of other false religions must all have it. We should not be following people, we should be following Jesus.
I’m concerned about you because I can see you’re sincere in your search for truth, but I believe you’re looking in the wrong place. My encouragement to you would be to read and know your Bible well; THAT is the truth, and knowing what it says will guard you against deceptive teachings.
God Bless!
Don’t visit often but having taken a look, decided to comment. Whilst spending time ‘looking’ for the true Church is admirable, there are passages in the Bible that merely ask us to ‘pray’ for the Church.
For me that is so powerful because none of us truly know who is a member of the true Church. God knows our hearts and minds, so He draws you to Christ who then begins the process of teaching.
I agree with the posts that advise holding fast to what your Bible teaches you whilst being constantly alert that at these times there will be many false prophets emerging. It isn’t our place to decide who is or is not a false prophet, it is our place to advise one another to remain faithfull to Our Father in heaven who sacrificed his son for The World.
I would draw attention to the quote of John 14 – 6 Jesus said to him.”I am the way and the truth,and the life.No one comes to the Father except through Me.
People often read this literally but recently whilst studying I was minded to consider the ‘I am’ in this verse to be the same ‘I am’ who Moses was to tell the people ‘who had sent him’. You can then see that this can be interpreted as – God’s way is the way, the truth, and the life, but, no one comes to the Father except through Me.
Not that I would want to take away anything but there are other instances where I am could be translated thus and emphasise the passage.
I have to say that my experience over the last year has been deeply heartening.
I received laying on of hands in November last year and ever since I have been receiving blessings in the form of answers to questions that have sat in my braind from childhood till now.
I do not know whether Mr and Mrs Weinland are who they say they are, all I know is that the Bible is alive with truth it is the living Word and we should hold fast to what it teaches.
God works ‘not by might, nor by power, but by His Spirit’ so hold on to that while considering who or where the true Church of God is.
Thank you angel.
Very well put.
It is important to recognize that there are many deceivers in the world who believe that one does not need to join God’s Church. This could not be further from the truth. God’s Word explicitly states that the Father calls people to Jesus Christ, who then adds them to His Church—the one He built 2,000 years ago. That Church is still in existence today.
Jesus built a Church and one is either in it or outside of it.
Roger,
It’s also important to remember that the Church is not a building; it is made up of individuals. The church is never spoken of in the NT as if it were an organization, but as believers who gathered together to hear God’s word, worship, pray, sing and serve.
Although Christians are encouraged to fellowship with other believers, there is no command to have or go to a building (or an organization) because WE are the temple. This is great news because it takes the pressure off of us to look for the “true church” as if there were only one place where they gather. There are “true believers” all over the world; all you have to do is talk to someone or listen to a pastor teach to know if they believe the Bible and teach/understand it accurately.
I listen to a variety of teachers because I think it’s a mistake to listen to only one. When I go to church, I’m listening to hear if the Bible is being taught correctly, looking for opportunities to be a blessing to that congregation, and discerning whether this is where I want to give my offerings. Although a pastor is accountable to God as to how he uses my offering; I want to be a good stewart and not give my money to someone who is misusing it.
What I look for is a pastor who spends time studying and preparing his sermons, not just someone who uses that time to vent or preach to people about things that bother HIM; someone who prays for and visits the sick, who encourages ministries, who evangelizes and has a heart for the lost. A pastor who understands his job is to serve the people, not expect them to serve him.
A person joins God’s church when they are born again, “Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.”
“Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God…you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ…”
(A person joins God’s church when they are born again, “Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually)? One can only be “begotton”too have the impregnation of the ‘Holy Spririt’ if they are called first then baptised with the laying of hands by the brethren of the one and only “True Church Of God”. This is my Goal ,even if it means going through further deceptions to get there.
Babies are born knowing nothing. They do not know even the basics of right and wrong. They have to be taught virtually everything. Similarly, the world does not know the things of God—spiritual right from spiritual wrong.They have to be first called,awakened (john 6:44) Then “yes” the temple has it individual blocks but are spiritual not physical (Ephesians 2:19-22) Jesus being the chief corner stone providing the whole foundations stability.Only in his Church. The knowledge of these things comes the responsibility to act on them.
Two Bible passages demonstrate that God holds people accountable for what they understand. Notice James 4:17: “Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.” Now read Hebrews 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.”
Let’s understand. Each time you learn more of God’s truth (what is “good”), and it makes sense to you—you at least generally understand it—you are being given extraordinary spiritual knowledge for which God holds you accountable.
This is part of the calling process—and is actually central to it. Further, it makes understanding how God calls one much more serious than most have believed. Recognize that God will only call each human being once. Therefore, you are responsible now for the knowledge that you are being given. If one does not act on what he is learning, God will take that understanding away (Rom. 2:13; Psa. 111:10), and such a person is in a grave spiritual condition.
God’s truth is most exciting to understand. It is the path to all the wonderful, good things in life—things God wants you to have. It is also the path to the greatest freedom that there is! Christ told certain Jews professing to believe on Him: “If you continue in My word [the truth – John 17:17], then are you My disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31-32). You must be willing to “continue” in your studies of God’s Word, learning ever more of His truth, which Christ explains will “set you free” from a world cut off from God and held captive by Satan. Even this understanding is precious knowledge.
Your associates in the world probably understand none of these things. Neither do your relatives. Without God’s calling, they have no possible way of enjoying now what is being offered to you—if you are understanding and acting upon God’s truth.
It is also vital that you make certain in your mind the things you are learning. You should find yourself wanting to prove the doctrines of God. Paul also told the Thessalonians to “prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (I Thes. 5:21). If you know God is calling you, take time to prove that He exists. Then prove that the Bible is truly His inspired Word for mankind.
Finally, prove the identity of God’s Church. By getting rid of that “Laodicean” luke warmness (Revelation 3:16-19) Remove all doubt, leaving no room for confusion. There are many counterfeit churches—many spiritual “look-alikes” in the world. Do not be fooled by any of them. Christ promised, “I will build My Church” (Matt. 16:18). Determine to know for certain if you have come in contact with it. Angel God bless.Warm regards:Roger
Angel,
I have been monitoring this site for quite some time and let me say that you epitomise what a christain should be. You understand perfectly the meaning of christianity and they way in which you respond to others in their questioning and reasoning befits your name.
Roger,
“One can only be “begotton”too have the impregnation of the ‘Holy Spririt’ if they are called first then baptised with the laying of hands by the brethren of the one and only “True Church Of God”.
I agree that God must draw us in order for us to respond to Him, but would you share with me why you believe you must be baptized with the laying of hands by the brethren of the one and only “true church”?
You say this is your goal even if “it means going thru further deceptions to get there”. I don’t understand that; deception won’t lead you to the truth. Jesus said if you abide in His word, you will know the truth and it will make you free. His word tells us to avoid false teachers and false prophets; how then can you expect to find the truth thru deceptions?
I would also like to know why you think God will only call you once. The Bible says God is not willing that any should perish, that if you call on His name you’ll be saved, that if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him; I see a heart of tremendous compassion and love in that, and amazing patience, which He demonstrated toward the Jews by forgiving them again and again. I don’t see a passage that indicates exactly how many times God calls a person; I would think that would be up to Him. If you know of one, please share.
I agree there are doctrines that are essential to salvation; when Paul said “test all things”, I believe he was exhorting us to make sure everything we believe lines up with scripture. That is a very important point; people will sometimes point to verses they’ve taken out of context to support a doctrine, but a doctrine must line up with ALL the verses that pertain to that subject. Not every passage that touches on a subject tells you everything you need to know about it.
In Rev. 3, the prevailing attitude of the Laodiceans was lukewarm and God wasn’t pleased with that; He was calling upon them to repent of this, just as He called upon the Ephesians to repent because they had left their first love. These are letters of correction, not condemnation; God was pointing out their errors and calling them to repentance. Just as God had patience with these churches, I believe He continues to be long-suffering today; both to groups and individuals.
Whenever I’ve heard of a church that claims to be the “true church”, invariably it claims to be the only one teaching the truth; that God has revealed something special to them, and they attempt to instill fear in their members to stop them from leaving. Here are some things I would watch out for: do you agree that EVERYTHING they teach lines up with scripture or are you agreeing because you’re afraid not to? Are they demonstrating love in discouraging you from leaving, or condemnation? The Bible says that without love, you have nothing. Do they seem overly concerned about your offerings? This should be something between you and God, not you and them. I firmly believe that if God is behind a ministry, He will provide the means; this is shown in the willing hearts of those He calls upon to give. If a pastor is having to guilt people into giving in order for his ministry to continue; this could show that God is not behind his ministry, not that the people are doing something wrong.
I believe we should be putting our trust in God and in His word, not in a teacher, not in people or an organization. The “rock” upon which Jesus would build His church was the truth the came out of the mouth of one who was called “Petra” or stone; that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Peter said we are the “living stones” that make up a spiritual house, but just as all of us living stones are not all in one place, this spiritual house does not exist just in one physical place.
Have a great day! God bless!
paul wrote:
“I know the right thing to do, but don’t/can’t do it”
wake up Roger and just let the light shine…it will be evident to the world.
Ordination into an office in God’s Church is also done through the laying on of hands. The first example is found in Acts 6:6-8, involving the ordination of deacons: “…and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them…And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.” God’s Church today faithfully observes this practice in all ordinations. Hebrews 6:2 lists it as one of God’s doctrines.
God’s Purpose for Christians
Throughout His ministry, Christ proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom of God. Hidden within this message is the understanding of the awesome, incredible human potential for the one who truly yields to God. Wherever Christ went, He spoke about the coming kingdom—or government—of God. While most of His parables were centered on this message, few that heard them understood their meaning. And when He spoke these parables, He always included how true Christians were qualifying to become part of that government!
Matthew 13 contains a half dozen “kingdom” parables. This chapter begins with the parable of the “Sower and the Seed,” depicting one throwing seed into various locations and kinds of soil. In some cases, the parable described how the seed grew and flourished in the person who received it. In other cases, it either died quickly after starting to grow, or took no root at all. Others who received the seed grew in character “thirty, sixty or one hundred fold” on the way to the kingdom.
This is followed by the parable of the “Wheat and Tares.” This parable discusses “fruit” that appears in Christians’ lives prior to the time God gathers them into His “barn.” The fruit, good or bad, represents Christian growth, or lack of growth. The barn is a type of the kingdom.
The third parable depicts the kingdom beginning as a tiny “grain of mustard seed” that grows into a great tree. This is followed by the parable of leaven, depicting God’s kingdom as leaven spreading until it has permeated the dough (the earth, all nations) that contains it. The fifth compares the kingdom to “hidden treasure” found in a field. The finder sells all that he has to buy this field.
The sixth parable describes the kingdom as the “pearl of great price,” which a person buys after selling all that he has to raise sufficient money for the purchase. The seventh and final parable of this one chapter describes the kingdom as a “net” gathering all kinds of fish. The “good” fish are kept—the “bad” are thrown away. Christ explains that the good fish are those who enter the kingdom. The bad represent those burned (vs. 50) and destroyed in a “furnace of fire” (the lake of fire). (Read our booklet The Truth About Hell to understand the truth about this misunderstood subject.)
In each of these parables, the message is the same. Some (not all) are willing to pay the price to be a Christian. They are willing to spiritually grow and develop real Christian character so that they may later inherit the eternal reward of becoming born (no longer merely begotten) Sons of God—in the god family—ruling with Him in the kingdom of God.
There are many other New Testament parables. Much of Christ’s teaching was through the use of these stories about common, well-known things. They were intended to carry deep lessons about a Christian’s calling, for those whose minds have been opened by God to understand them.
Christ said, “No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw him” (John 6:44, 65). You cannot understand God’s truth unless God has drawn you—called you—to it through the power of His Spirit. So, the process of coming to true Christian conversion begins with a calling or drawing directly by the Father.
The parables of the talents, penny, marriage supper, ten virgins, sheep and goats, unjust judge, fig tree, lost sheep, lost coin, prodigal son, unjust steward, Lazarus and the rich man, the good Samaritan and others, all involve or depict a Christian entering the coming kingdom, or governing Family, of God at Christ’s Second Coming. Space could be taken to more closely examine each parable and demonstrate this. Though some are very short, and others quite long, the purpose of most of Christ’s parables is essentially the same. For those who follow Peter’s instruction to “grow in grace, and in…knowledge” (II Pet. 3:18), rulership in the government of God under Christ is attainable.
Roger,
In Hebrews 2, laying on of hands is listed as a principle of Christ; Jesus often laid His hands on people when healing them, and to bless them; the apostles and elders also laid hands on people, to receive the Holy Spirit, to send them out to minister, and for healing. It does not say, however, that laying on of hands MUST accompany healing, blessings, receiving of the Holy Spirit and sending people out to minister.
I believe this is better understood as saying the laying on of hands is an acceptable practice in the church, not so much that it has to be done for a healing to occur (Jesus didn’t always lay hands on people), a blessing to be given, the Spirit to be received or people to be able to minister.
The book of Acts tells us about many things the early church was doing, but we have to be careful that we recognize the difference between practices and doctrines; for instance, some point to verses that say someone spoke in tongues when they received the Spirit as evidence that you MUST speak in tongues to receive the Holy Spirit, and be saved.
If you show me a verse that clearly says you HAVE to do something, I’m with you, especially if it pertains to salvation, but I grew up in a church where they had a lot of do’s and don’ts, so I’ve learned to search the scriptures for myself to see if these things are so.
Acts 10 & 11 speak of families to whom Peter was preaching, that the Holy Spirit fell on them as upon the apostles at the beginning, as they heard the word of God, and before they had even been water baptized. This tells me hearing and accepting the word of God was enough for God to give them the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Roger,
Something I just noticed as I was reading thru your last post is that it looks like you cut and pasted out of a book:
(Read our booklet The Truth About Hell to understand the truth about this misunderstood subject.)
It is one thing to read books that may (or may not) help you understand difficult passages in the Bible better, but notice the claim that is made here: read OUR booklet to understand the TRUTH about this “misunderstood” subject.
Obviously when someone believes something, they believe it because they think it’s the truth, but these kinds of claims go beyond that; the reader is expected to believe it is the truth because this author claims to have the only correct understanding. I avoid this kind of book like the plague because I don’t have to believe them, I only have to believe the Bible.
One of the problems with spending more time reading books other than the Bible is that when you read them, you are “listening”, so to speak, to the human author; whereas when you read the Bible, it’s God Who is speaking to you.
One of the ways false teachers get people’s attention is pointing to the parables as something that only certain Christians can understand. The Bible says the reason they were confusing was so unbelievers couldn’t understand them, and Jesus had to explain them to His disciples. These false teachers say THEY understand the hidden meaning of these parables, and only certain Christians get to know what they mean.
Here’s the problem: the listener is expected to believe what this teacher says, because they’re claiming God gave them this special understanding that no one else has. So in reality you’re trusting them, not God, to explain these parables to you. I noticed that in the explanation of parables you shared, woven in is the doctrine of the “god family”; so not only are they giving you their interpretation of this parable, they’re feeding you their doctrines as well. Pretty slick.
Roger, you seem like a very nice person; I encourage you to study on your own so God can speak to your heart and the Spirit can explain things directly to you. We don’t NEED teachers (although they can be greatly helpful) if we have the Holy Spirit as OUR tutor. All teachers should come second to the Holy Spirit.
Angel: Sound advise,thanks.God gives His Spirit at baptism, which takes place after repentance,or so I am led to believe. But how does one travel from repentance to baptism in a state of fragility with out yet receiving the Spirit?. Repentance is a gift from God just as much as one’s initial calling.I have been “called” and have repented by a heartfelt soul rendering understanding through (Ephesians 2:19-22) but would I not need to be led by the Holy Spirit to correct baptism in the body of Christ,not by man?You are right.It is up to the “Word” of God to take me to his one and only true Church.I am sure there will be some statements we will not feel totally right with from the leader of Gods true Church when we arrive.As no one is perfect.
Roger,
There is an order in which this happens, and it makes sense once you think it thru. It begins with being called by God; the Bible tells us we can’t respond to Him unless He is drawing us. God doesn’t want anyone to perish, so we can safely say everyone is given the opportunity to believe and repent. To respond, we must believe and it takes faith to believe. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Having believed, we repent and put our faith in Jesus; that His death provided the payment for our sin. Having repented, we are forgiven; having commanded us to forgive our debtors we know God would not do less.
Once we have believed, repented and been forgiven, God has promised to give us the Holy Spirit. This is something only the believer him/herself would know, and the evidence that this has happened is a changed life, and we see this by the fruit of the Spirit.
Jesus commanded us to be baptized, which is a beautiful picture of what has happened to us; we died to sin and rose to new life; a new creation. In I Cor. Chapter 1, Paul exhorts people not to follow teachers and not to make a big deal about who baptized you.
This is all about Jesus; it’s not about what we did, or who prayed for us, or who baptized us or who laid hands on us. We can’t pay for our sins with works, and we don’t do works to hold on to our salvation. Our faith, if real, produces works, which is evidence of our faith, but at the end of the day it is what Jesus did that saves us, not what we do.
Jesus died for ALL of our sins, so once forgiven, our sins no longer condemn us. This is great news because as long as we are in this body of flesh, we can’t help but sin.
Sadly, there are people that believe they must keep God’s laws TO BE SAVED. They forget that the Jews could not be saved by keeping the law. When we are born again, we become slaves to righteousness and no longer slaves to sin. We serve a different Master, and we follow His ways because we love Him.
God can guide you to a church where you can fellowship, be spiritually fed, worship, pray, etc. If He hasn’t led you anywhere yet it could be that the churches you’re considering aren’t right.
When you study, be led by the Spirit; don’t be dazzled by sensational sounding teachings; salvation doesn’t depend on you understanding the more difficult passages of scripture.
Cults like to point to the scriptures that speak of the “little flock” and that not many find the narrow way, and say THEY ALONE are the special ones – Roger, YOU are special to God; you don’t need to find a group to tell you that. Don’t worry about how many people are going to be saved, or who they will be; if you have a heart for the lost perhaps God is calling you to evangelism.
If you are a genuine, repented believer; YOU are the true church, as is everyone who has believed and put their trust in Jesus.
LOL Roger!
You are looking for perfection when “the whole world lies in wickedness.”
The only thing perfect is God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Everything else falls short.
That is why we should focus on God and our Lord Jesus Christ….everything else, (people, government, religiouse institutions) falls short. If you are honest about it, you will see where you yourself fall short daily. I do.
Untill we leave our flesh, we will never experience perfection.
Roger,
Todd brings up a good point; the focus should be on Jesus, not a church organization, not a teacher.
So often I hear people say, when speaking of their conversion and Christian walk; “I” got baptized, “I” go to church now, “I” am born again/saved, “I” no longer xxx (whatever they were doing before they repented), “I” found God, and so on. It’s so easy for us to focus on ourselves or whatever person or church was instrumental in taking us thru the process of salvation; but it’s not about what we or any church or teacher did!
We must take care not to idolize our own efforts, our church, or any teacher. Without Jesus, NONE of this would be possible; we would still be dead in our sins. God offered His Son to die for our sins; God reaches out to mankind; God gives us the faith to believe; God gives us the Holy Spirit, Who is our guarantee of heaven and without Whom we cannot be saved; God opens our understanding; God has given us a Tutor Who understands the things of the Spirit; God gives us new mercies every morning and throws our sin so far away it’s like it never happened and never brings it up again; God has given us a Mediator, a Priest Who understands us and to Whom we have direct access.
Jesus started the Church, which is a body of individuals, not an organization. The church is to love one another, minister to one another, and live in such a way that people are drawn to the love of Christ; that is its function. Jesus came to save, not to condemn, and that should be the attitude of the church. He gave us teachers, deacons, bishops and pastors to minister to the people; these men should be pointing us to Jesus, not telling people they have to believe their teachings or be a part of their fellowship to be saved. A church organization cannot save you.
Roger,
I’d like to share an experience I had years ago. I was raised in a charismatic church that taught they were the only ones who had “the truth”. They believed receiving the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by speaking in tongues.
When I was twelve, I was very curious by the things I saw and heard happening when they gave an “altar call”. People were babbling and doing a lot of odd things. One day someone invited me up to pray during this time; before I knew it people were surrounding me, praying, laying hands on me, encouraging me to start making sounds; they were even prompting me on what sounds to make. Being caught up in the moment, I did what they said, and they all told me, “you’ve got it, you’ve got it”, meaning the Holy Spirit.
I took their word for it, and everybody was excited; but as the weeks went by, nothing changed and I began to realize it wasn’t true. I was scared and angry; afraid God would be mad at me for “faking it”, and mad at the people at church for deceiving me. Looking back, I know God understood this wasn’t my fault and what those church people told me was wrong because they had a wrong understanding of how the Holy Spirit is received, but that’s what can happen when you listen to people rather than study the scriptures for yourself.
Many years later, when God called me and I was ready to respond, He started by opening my understanding; then He gave me the faith to believe, repent, and commit my life to Him. When I received the Holy Spirit, my life began to change and although I lent myself to these changes, it wasn’t only me making them. It’s as if I’m on a bicycle for two; I can tell when I’m pedaling and when the other Person is doing the work. The NT calls us to live a holy life; this shouldn’t be mistaken for keeping the law.
When I was a child, my parents set rules for me and I followed them to keep from being disciplined. As an adult, I follow those guidelines because I want to; I know now that my parents were right, and they set those rules because they loved me and didn’t want any harm to come to me.
Jesus said we can only come to the Father thru HIM; not a church. A church can help you and guide you, but they are not the ones who give you the Holy Spirit; only God can do that.
Angel and Todd: After going through the book of (Peter),which speaks directly to me.Thank you both for being good shepherds for me as in (1 Peter:5)I agree with you both in almost everything.I still feel my tendencies lean more in to “Armstrongism” although ,too uphold the “Appointed Times” “Covenants” “Holy Days”.I also have been through the “Born Again”"Saved” “Penticostal”thing. Last time I remember they were as always ,only talking up giving them money constantly,never preaching on the Gospel Of The Kingdom Of God the message of Jesus they only preach about Jesus,his sacrifice made for us to guilt trip us to continually tithe and donate ,goods of value ,money and even property.I do not agree with traditional Christianity’s teaching of grace. It teaches that the Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments. It maintains that Christ came to establish a “new covenant” containing only grace and promises—liberty to do whatever one pleases. Law is not included in their package. In their own minds, these creative religionists have devised a way to “have a good time” and have a clear conscience. They had to eliminate the source of their gnawing guilt. The solution was simple: “Grace alone ‘saves’ men. The burden of commandment-keeping is no longer necessary.”
This diabolical teaching would lead you to believe that the law of God is harsh and cruel. It proclaims that the fault of the Old Covenant was with the law, and since God gave the law, the fault must have been His. Recall what Christ says to those who follow these false precepts: “Howbeit in vain do you worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men…Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition” (Mark 7:7-9).Instead of allowing the Bible to interpret itself, most people read into Scripture whatever meaning they already have been handed and assume is correct. They gloss over what Christ said in Matthew 5: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill” (vs. 17). This is the same Christ who prophesied in Isaiah 42: “The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honorable” (vs. 21).The participation and observance of the seven Appointed Times teaches us Gods plan for us all.The Awesome Potential Of Man(Restored COG) or Gods Holy Day Plan (United COG).
Roger,
Having studied both points of view, grace vs. law-keeping; I side with grace. Here are my thoughts on the objections you sited:
I believe some people fear this view because they think it means “you can do whatever you want”. That’s absolutely not true, and anyone who thinks it does mean that is wrong.
There’s a huge difference between saying you can sin all you want and saying your sin no longer condemns you. We all sin; we were born sinners and were already condemned. When we accept Jesus’ sacrifice, repent, and are forgiven; our sins are no longer held against us. This is not a license to sin; we repented of our sin and are no longer slaves to it. Even when the Jews offered sacrifices for their sin, it was still held against them because those sacrifices were not accepted by God as PAYMENT. Our sin must be paid for, and our righteousness will not suffice.
The NT teaches Christian living based on God’s laws, and that the fruit of the Spirit must be evident in the believer’s life. It also teaches Christian liberty:
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.” Gal. 5:1-6
The bondage Paul is referring to is the law. Those who put themselves under the yoke of the law must keep THE WHOLE LAW, (which is impossible) and if you try to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace.
Paul also said this:
“For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.” Gal. 5:13
Liberty does not give us license to sin. Think of it like this: Let’s say someone told you you’re no longer under the laws of this land; no matter what you do you can’t be arrested, tried or convicted, and this happened because you were once a lawbreaker but you decided that breaking the law is wrong and you intend to live your life accordingly. If you say “Yippee, I can do whatever I want, let’s go rob a bank”, then your repentance was a sham, wasn’t it? And guess what? If you didn’t really repent, then you weren’t really forgiven, so anyone who does this is fooling no one but themselves.
Those who claim that we put our faith in God’s grace instead of our ability to keep the law because we just want to have a good time and have a clear conscience are bearing false witness against us. When I sin I don’t have a clear conscience about it; I ask God to forgive me, often with tears, and help me do better.
I see that you are still sharing things taught in a book other than the Bible, as evidenced by the references to “Restored COG” and “United COG”. They are giving you a very distorted view of grace, my friend. I hope you will set these books aside and study what the Bible says about law-keeping and grace for yourself.
God bless you, Roger
The way I see it is – yes, we are saved by grace and I thank our Heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus Christ for that.
BUT, because we love God and our Lord Jesus we should then have a desire to follow His commandments.
So I do not think it can be pleasing to God to totally disregard His Sabbath and Holy days in favour of pagan Sunday, Christmas, Easter etc as most of us in the Christian church are doing.
Our Lord kept the Sabbath and the Holy days and so did the Apostle Paul and the early church. As Jesus is our Lord and Saviour, shouldn’t we be following Him ?
As I see it, today’s Christian church has been seduced by the enemy into thinking that God’s specified Holy days no longer matter and are somehow superceded. Very little teaching is given about the significance of the Sabbath or the 7 Festivals of God (Leviticus 23). The result is that the majority of folk in the Christian churches are missing out on the 7000 year plan of God and the wonderful information contained in the Festivals.
These Festivals are not Jewish Festivals, they are the Festivals of the Lord.
In this particular regard, I go along with Herbert W. Armstrong and Ron Weinland.
Mal,
I agree that we are saved by grace, thru faith, and genuine faith should produce works. Here’s where I think we differ, tell me what you think:
Jesus made a new covenant with the Church, “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
In regard to the old covenant, we are told: “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.” And, “In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”
Here we’re given a comparison of the two covenants:
“For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect…in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.”
“But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
The new covenant made the old one obsolete. This is not something people say because they don’t want to keep the commandments, it’s what the Bible says. Some of the Jews believed they still had to keep them, and they had to be corrected; they no longer had to be circumcised, avoid unclean meat, etc. Remember God didn’t just give 10 commandments, there were lots more. This is why it was made clear that those who made themselves debtors to the law had to keep the WHOLE LAW.
You see, you can’t do both; those under the old covenant law had to keep ALL of it, but under grace you’re not saved by works and you’re not under the law. If it was necessary to keep the law while under grace, why were these Jews told they didn’t have to keep those laws, if those under the law have to keep ALL of it? Why did Paul say those who attempt to be justified by law have fallen from grace?
So what laws is God talking about when He said He will write them on our hearts and minds? Jesus said, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
You said Jesus kept the Sabbath and the festivals and so did the early church, so shouldn’t we do the same – as long as the Temple existed, Jesus and the Jews continued to do this, but the early church was also meeting on the first day of the week, Sunday, which is the day Jesus rose from the dead; this day has special significance for the church, just as the Sabbath had significance for the Jews.
To say people have to worship on one day or the other, or not on one of those days, is unbiblical because we are told not to judge each other for this, and not to put on the yoke of bondage (the law).
To those who feel convicted about worshiping on “pagan Sunday” I would say, call it the first day of the week if it makes you feel better, that’s what the Jews called it; it’s the same day, so was the early church doing wrong by meeting on that day, or was it pronounced evil (and by whom, God or man?) simply because of something pagans were celebrating – I’m thinking pagans probably do more celebrating on Saturday than Sunday because they can sleep in the next day! I’m not trying to make light of this, because I know how important it is to some people, I just don’t see the logic in it. I believe God is honored whenever He is worshiped, 24/7.
Unless someone can show me where it clearly states, in the Bible (not one of Ron or Herbert’s books), that God is not to be worshiped on Sunday, I don’t see the problem, and I don’t think it’s something people should divide over.
Mal,
I respect the fact that you choose to worship on the Sabbath; if you think it’s wrong to worship on Sunday you shouldn’t do it.
I don’t find anything wrong with celebrating the festivals, either, only with the idea that if you don’t you’re doing something wrong. I’ve been to many a Bible study that taught thru the books of the Law, and the significance and lessons to be learned from the festivals, but the fact remains that the commandment to celebrate these festivals was part of the covenant God made with the Jews and it is now obsolete, so I would say that keeping the festivals now, because you want to, is great!
God bless you for your contributions Angel and your encouragement Mal.I perfer to side with both (“Grace and all the “Laws” to the best of my abilities with the help of “Jesus”)And to think I tasted Dog and ate Swine in the Philippines surrounded by Catholicism as recently as of April of 2008.I praise the “Lord” for my deliverance,not only for the knowledge of clean and unclean meats.We all need to try to unite in unity because time is short.Some brethren are in a higher state of fear than others with varying degrees of belief and increased awareness to the impending start of the Time-Of-Troubles.It is all around us now folks,like a woman in labour,it is getting stronger.Yes, the Bible is our best guide by far.We here conversing in this Forum have been ushered here by the (Holy Spirit) for good reason.I feel we are privileged in narrowing down the identity of the True Chuch Of God to just a few.The information that these people(Pack,Meredith,Flurry and Weinland) provide in regards to our End-Time predicament is invaluable.Not only their books and booklets but their Magazines:The”Real Truth”&”The Philidelphia Trumpet” & “Good News”.Awesome reading with prophetic insight that is unfolding before our very eyes.
LOL Roger,
I pray your eyes are opened soon.
Looks like you totally disregarded what Angel explained so well.
(2 Thessalonians 3:6-15) Todd
Mal,
I was thinking about what you said in regard to today’s Christian church being seduced by the enemy into thinking that God’s holy days no longer matter and are somehow superceded.
This is a serious claim and should be taken seriously.
The covenant God made with Abraham was one-sided and unconditional; He would provide Abraham with a son, make a nation of his descendants, and give them the land of Israel forever.
The covenant He made with the Jews was conditional and agreed upon by both parties; He would be their God and they would be His people; they would obey His commandments and be blessed if they did, cursed if they didn’t. He gave them, not just ten, but many commandments; 613 to be exact.
When Jesus made a new covenant with the church; it made the old one obsolete. What does that mean, exactly? The definition of obsolete is to replace with something newer or better; no longer in use; outdated. Jesus made this an open-ended covenant; anyone wanting to enter into it must meet the condition, which is to accept Jesus’ sacrifice as payment for their sins. This is done by believing and repenting.
The old covenant was not open-ended, it named the parties involved; God and the Children of Israel. God did not make this covenant with the Gentiles or any of the surrounding nations. The Sabbath was given to them as a day of rest on which they were to remember something miraculous that God did; creation. The festivals point to Jesus, they were a shadow of things to come. Since the old covenant is outdated, what have they been replaced with? Jesus! The miraculous event Jesus wants the church to remember is His death and resurrection. He commanded us to celebrate Communion, but there are no other commands to celebrate it or not to celebrate it in any other way.
If someone were to accuse me of violating the terms of a contract, the first thing I would do is ask to see it so I could ascertain whether I did indeed enter into that contract. If someone accuses me of violating the old covenant, the first thing I would say is that I’m not one of the parties named in that covenant. I entered into the new covenant; so not only am I not violating the old one, it’s no longer in effect.
Christians study the whole Bible, not just the NT, so they’re not missing out on anything it teaches. I believe the accusation about how Christians regard the Sabbath and holy days, and the fear of celebrating modern holidays that are centered on Jesus is unfounded; it’s man-made and seems to have come out of groups that have set themselves apart from the church.
Thanks for the scripture Roger… 2 thes 3:10 helped me prove a point to a freind of mine.
Here’s some for you: Colosians 2:16-23
actually roger….start at colosians 2:13
That’s a great passage, Todd; one of my favorites.
Roger, you said something about tasting dog and swine last year, that you praise God for the knowledge of clean/unclean meats. What do you think about this passage, Acts 11:1-18:
Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him, 3 saying, “You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!”
4 But Peter explained it to them in order from the beginning, saying: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
todd/angel
Colossians 2:16, “ So let no one judge you in food or in drink or regarding a Festival or New Moon or Sabbaths which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ”.
This passage is commonly quoted by Christians as ‘proof’ that God’s Sabbaths/Festivals are now of little importance because they have been replaced by Christ. I have myself previously understood it this way.
However, I was shown an alternative way to view this Scripture.
The previously heathen Colossians had never kept the Holy days of God before but, having been converted to Christianity, they were now keeping them. Paul is warning them in these verses not to return to, or be influenced by, their old pagan ways, the ways of those who were unconverted and who hated God’s laws and festivals.
A key to this comes earlier, in verse 8:
“Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceipt, ACCORDING TO THE TRADITIONS OF MEN, ACCORDING TO THE BASIC PRINCIPLES OF THE WORLD, AND NOT ACCORDING TO CHRIST”.
Notice also the wording “…….ARE a shadow of things to come….”. If these things no longer applied, surely the words “….WERE a shadow of things to come…” would have been used ?
………………………………………………………………………..
Also, it is clear from the New Testament that the early Christian church was still keeping God’s Festivals. Examples of this are: Acts 12:3, Acts 20:6, 1 Corinthians 16:8, Acts 20:16, Acts 27:9, 1 Corinthians 5:8. If the festivals no longer applied why would this be so ?
Notice also Zechariah 14:16, which is a yet FUTURE time:
“And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and TO KEEP THE FESTIVAL OF TABERNACLES”.
I find it striking that today’s Christian church (including my own) keeps NONE of God’s Appointed Times, and yet sees fit to come before the Lord at times which are ALL pagan based (Sunday, Christmas, Easter etc). Something seems to have happened to the Christian church along the way. A subtle and successful seduction away from the ways of God by our adversary ?
Today is actually God’s Festival of Tabernacles. I suspect very few in today’s Christian church would have any idea about that or know what the Festival was about or be that bothered about it.
As for your comment (angel) that the today’s emphasis on God’s holy days ” is man-made and seems to have come from groups that have set themselves apart from the church”, maybe the ‘man-made’ comment should actually be the other way round ? – and we in today’s Christian church perhaps have some repenting to do ?
Mal,
Colosians 2:13-14
He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
what part of that do you not understand?
mal,
you can continue to read colosians 2:20-25
Hi Todd
Regarding your reference to Colossians 2:13-14, it depends which translation you look at.
The New Testament in Modern English translates it this way:
“Christ has utterly wiped out the damning evidence of broken laws and commandments which hung over our heads, and has competely annulled it by nailing it over his own head on the cross”.
In other words our crimes against God were nailed to Jesus’ cross. He paid our debt. This is rather different to saying God’s laws are now cancelled.
Apart from that, do you have any thoughts on the rest of my previous posting ?
Mal,
Col. 2:16, is a continuation of the thought being expressed in verse 14 “having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
The handwriting of requirements is the Law, so continuing in that line of thought, it goes on to say no one should judge you regarding a festival, or a new moon or Sabbaths. These are the Jewish Sabbath and festivals, there’s nothing here that indicates it’s referring to pagan ways. It clearly says they’re not to be judged on food, drink and festivals; it does not say anything about returning to their old ways.
As far as the wording “are a shadow of things to come”, since these festivals were still being celebrated at that point in time, it makes sense that this wording would be used instead of saying “were” because the festivals weren’t past tense.
The festivals were still being kept because the Temple wasn’t destroyed until 70 AD; this book was written about 10 years earlier. It makes sense to understand this as saying they could continue to celebrate the festivals, or not, but should not be judged either way.
To summarize, since the Law was taken out of the way, no one should judge you regarding food, drink or a festival….
Zech. 14:16 refers to a future time when the festival of tabernacles will be celebrated; when all the nations that came against Jerusalem will worship God. This time has not come yet. As you read thru this chapter, it says that the Day of the Lord is coming, and describes the events that lead up to Jesus’ Second Coming; then it talks about all the nations coming up to Jerusalem to worship. So this can’t happen until after Jesus returns and the Temple has been rebuilt, as is described in Ezekiel chapters 40-48.
Some of the feasts require animals to be sacrificed, which is impossible since the destruction of the Temple. It was no accident that God allowed the Temple to be destroyed; during the church age the sacrifices required for these feasts cannot be performed so it makes sense that the church is not required to keep them.
Mal, I notice you didn’t respond to the passages I shared with you on my last post. These passages clearly show the following:
1. That the old covenant was between God and the
Children of Israel – no one else.
2. That the Jews were commanded to observe the
Sabbath and the festivals under the old covenant.
3. That the new covenant replaced the old covenant.
4. That the old covenant is obsolete.
5. That we are saved by grace thru faith, not by works.
6. That those who attempt to be justified by the law have
fallen from grace.
My comment about the fear of celebrating modern holidays that honor Jesus being man-made was based on the fact that men decided these days were evil; not God. There is no scripture that says Christians are not to worship on the first day of the week, and that they are not to celebrate the birth of Christ or His resurrection.
If it is your choice to judge the church for not observing the Jewish Sabbath and the festivals; for worshiping on the day Jesus rose from the dead; and for celebrating the birth of Jesus and His resurrection, well, it’s my choice not to judge you for whatever days you do or do not observe, in keeping with Col. 2:16 and Romans chapter 14.
I’d appreciate hearing your thoughts on the six points from my last post. I’m enjoying the discussion; it’s always a blessing to search the scriptures.
God Bless!
once again mal,
angels explanations far exceed what mine would be.
Good job Angel.
Mal: They sound so emphatic that they are Gentiles?Not from the seeds of Ephraim and Manasseh.All jews are not Israeli,as all Israeli are not from the tribes of Judah,Benjamin,Levi.Todd. Yes, Angle has elligant language and a intelligent lovely person,but so was Ellen G White?God states four times that His Feasts were ordained forever! Twice He declares they were to be observed throughout Israel’s generations. God is most serious about obedience to them, because verses 29-30 state that anyone who did not obey them would be “cut off”—“destroyed”—put to death!
Verses 37-38, 44 reiterate, “These are the feasts of the Lord” and are “the sabbaths of the Lord.” (Verse 39 explains that the first day of Tabernacles and the Last Great Day are also “Sabbaths.”) These are not the “Jew’s feasts” or “Israel’s feasts,” as some who are dishonest with the Scriptures assert.
Get this firmly in your mind. These Holy Days are God’s Sabbaths—they are Feasts of the Lord!You must be willing to open your Bible and honestly accept what it says about the holidays of men—and about God’s Holy Days. It has been almost universally taught that these annual Sabbaths of the Bible have been “done away”—that they were only for ancient Israel, or “the Jews.” Many have supposed that Christ “nailed them to the cross” along with most everything else in the Old Testament.
The majority of people stoutly defend what they have merely assumed is right or biblical. They will read with prejudice anything that contradicts their assumptions.
If you are going to take the time to read this booklet, should you not at least read it with an open mind—and without bias? Ask God to guide you—to help you prove what He says in His Word. The Bible is “profitable for correction” (II Tim. 3:16) for all who are willing to accept it—for all who truly want to serve and please God.
The Bible is God’s inspired Word—His written Instruction Book to mankind. It answers every important question in life and explains how to live—it reveals the road to salvation!
II Timothy 2:15 commands, “Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” God expects us to know His Word so that we can act on it.
Proper Bible study leads to approval from God. Both the Old and New Testaments state, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God” (Matt. 4:4; Deut. 8:3).
Paul explained that people are the servants of whatever and whoever they obey: “Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Rom. 6:16). People either serve and obey God, and are given eternal life (vs. 23)—or they serve and obey sin, and earn eternal death!
If God once commanded that certain Holy Days be kept, then should you not be certain why you choose not to observe them? No matter how comfortable a lifelong practice may be, should you not base your decision to continue doing it on proof—hard evidence—instead of assumptions?
God says, “To this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at My word” (Isa. 66:2) and “Prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:2).
Will you sincerely, with an open mind, seek and tremble before the truth of God’s Word about His Holy Days—or will you go along with the masses and their traditions of men’s heathen holidays?
The churches of this world will often admit to making a half-hearted effort at keeping nine of the Ten Commandments. Typically, they will acknowledge that it is wrong to steal, kill, covet, bear false witness, and commit adultery. They will also acknowledge that honoring one’s father and mother, avoiding idolatry and taking God’s name in vain—while claiming to follow the God described in the first Commandment—are basically good things to do. However, most do a poor job of actually keeping these nine commandments, and teach that Christ officially did away with them and “kept them for us.” But most will agree, at least tacitly, that these nine commandments are “nice principles.”
Consider. Exodus 20:8-11 reveals that Sabbath-keeping is the Fourth Commandment—and a fundamental law of God! The Sabbath was hallowed—made into holy time—by God at creation. God never authorized or hallowed Sunday, the first day of the week. Christ kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16; Mark 2:27-28). So did Paul (Acts 13:42, 44; 17:2; 18:4)—as did the New Testament Church. In Exodus 31, it was ordained “forever” and to be kept “perpetually” by all “generations” of God’s people.
Theologians and religionists have long taught that the true Sabbath of the Bible is the seventh day. Saturday, not Sunday, is the seventh day of the week. A good dictionary reveals this. And the weekly cycle has never been changed. However, the ministers of this world have had to carefully devise “explanations” that dismiss many clear scriptures about God’s plain command to keep His Sabbath. Instead of letting God’s Word change their beliefs to conform with His truths, they change the words or their meanings to make them fit their beliefs! They justify Sunday-keeping—even though God’s Word has never justified Sunday-keeping! The same is true of the annual Holy Days.
God has always said, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Ex. 20:8). He has never said, “Remember the first day (the pagan sun’s day) to keep it holy,” or authorized His Church or mankind to do this. Nor did He ever command or allow His people to keep numerous other pagan festivals and days of worship. He has always commanded against their observance, and the early New Testament Church kept God’s Holy Days for over four centuries—with its remnant still doing so today!
Christmas and Easter have nothing to do with God and are both condemned in scripture in the strongest possible terms. (You may wish to read our free booklets The True Origin of Christmas and The True Origin of Easter to learn more about these holidays that men have used to replace God’s true Holy Days.)
Many pagan festivals, including Christmas (Saturnalia), Easter (the festival of Ishtar), Halloween, New Year’s, Valentine’s Day and worship on the day of the Sun, were observed throughout the Roman Empire long before Christ’s First Coming. The apostate false church simply adopted them into practice, and enforced them on all citizens in the empire through the vehicle of the civil government.
The most obvious ways that the little horn has “thought” to change—and counterfeit—God’s holy times and laws has been by replacing His Sabbath with the pagan sun’s day, thus altering His fourth great law (many speak of Sunday as their “sabbath”)—and by replacing His annual Holy Days with numerous pagan holidays practiced for centuries by the Romans and Greeks.
But there are other ways that the “little horn” has changed God’s way of marking time. It starts the year in the dead of winter, while God starts His year in the spring, when nature is springing to life. The “woman” begins her days in the middle of the night, while God marks days from sunset to sunset. The Roman church begins the workweek on the second day, Monday, while God begins the weekly work cycle on the first day of the week, Sunday. Pagan Rome has devised an unnatural calendar based solely on the sun, thus having varying lengths for its months, while God bases His calendar on the moon and starts months with each new moon.
God’s sacred calendar—generally referred to as the Hebrew calendar—has never been recognized by religionists, scientists, historians and educators as the way God intended to mark and measure time. The Jews did not invent this calendar or contrive it from imagination. Its principles go back to the first chapter of the Bible, where the sun and the moon were appointed “…for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years” (Gen 1:14). No other calendar harmonizes the solar and lunar cycles. Only the Hebrew calendar sanctioned by God does this!
The whole world has been deceived into accepting these and other “changes” and been led away from the plain, clear commands of God’s Word. Billions have carelessly remained ignorant of God’s instructions, content to believe heathen customs, practices, days and times that have been spoon-fed to them.
We will learn that obedience to God’s weekly and annual Sabbaths is intertwined—they cannot be separated. Though they stand or fall together, it is not the purpose of this booklet to prove which day is the Christian Sabbath. This large subject is covered very thoroughly in our free book Saturday or Sunday – Which Is the Sabbath? However, it is impossible to study the subject of God’s Sabbaths without studying both this booklet and that book. (You may also read The Sabbath – Has Time Been Lost? for proof of the unchanged weekly cycle since the time of creation.) You are urged to do this, because the arguments and suppositions of those who claim God’s plain commands are no longer in effect are equally applied to the issue of weekly Sabbath-keeping and annual Sabbath observance.
Some claim that Colossians 2:16-17 does away with the Sabbath and Holy Days. (We will see later that it does not.) Others claim that the annual Sabbaths were part of Moses’ law. They were not, because they were observed before Moses’ law of ritualistic orders had been given. Others claim that sacrifices were performed on these days—but Numbers 28:3 shows that sacrifices took place on every day of the year.
So then, this all-important question now arises: What were the days that God made holy and commanded ancient Israel to observe? Some important background is essential to properly approach the subject of God’s seven annual Feast Days as they were taught in the Old Testament.
They are introduced in Leviticus 23.
I am,as we all are still learning.I will atempt to tie up “Grace and Works”together and that they can not be separated at another time.As I am starting a block of employment for a few days.God Bless:Roger
roger,
again, new covenant vs. old convenant.
no need to go into great detail….it’s that simple.
Roger,
I appreciate the compliment, although I’m not in agreement with the teachings of Ellen G. White.
The Bible tells us exactly who the Jews and Gentiles are; Jews are descendants of Abraham and Sarah, Gentiles are not. I would like to point out that it’s not dishonest to say the Jews were commanded, under the old covenant which was an agreement between God and the children of Israel, to keep the Sabbath/feasts. Scripture is very clear on this.
I have yet to see scripture that says otherwise, although I have brought this up with you and Mal several times. I guess that’s not in your booklets. I would not expect you to take my word for anything so I provide the scriptures that support what I’m saying.
We refer to the Sabbath and the feasts as “Jewish” because of the fact that they were the ones ordered by God to keep them, not as a denial of what the Bible calls them.
I have yet to see scripture that forbids Christians to worship on the first day of the week, or to celebrate the birth of Christ and His resurrection, even though I’ve asked you and Mal to show them to me. Once again, Roger, you’re presenting pages out of the booklet you’re reading to prove these things, but I don’t have to believe your booklet, my friend; I only have to believe the Bible.
I think you’re very sincere and convinced of what you believe, and I respect that, I just don’t make a habit of taking anyone’s word over God’s. I will ask you, as I have asked Mal, to respond to six very important points I made concerning the old and new covenants.
1. That the old covenant was between God and the
Children of Israel – no one else.
2. That the Jews were commanded to observe the
Sabbath and the festivals under the old covenant.
3. That the new covenant replaced the old covenant.
4. That the old covenant is obsolete.
5. That we are saved by grace thru faith, not by works.
6. That those who attempt to be justified by the law have
fallen from grace.
I’m sorry, but I don’t feel obligated to respond to a booklet; if you have any points you’d like to bring up I’m happy to discuss them with you, but your booklets reflect someone else’s opinions on these subjects.
As all recent discussion has virtually ignored Ron Weinland and his “end-time prophecies”, it’s perhaps timely to look at his latest online posting of September 23, 2009. He says, “The impact of the “prophetic” First Tumpet is about to resound with its greatest intensity yet!” He then points to the “false hope” that “an economic recovery was now taking place”, and concludes that, “That balloon is soon to burst”.
He’s careful not to stipulate any time-lines, just “soon”. As all of his previously predited time-lines have, to date, been proven wrong, I fully expect he will be proven wrong on this one. Eventually he will, as I predicted at the end of my posting of July 24 2009, be obliged to come up with yet more of his “divinely-revealed explanations” (such as the so-called ‘50th Truth’, and the two-day fast of January 31 2009) to account for delays to, and/or non-happenings of, previously predicted events.
We won’t have too long to wait. RW has said that the balloon will burst “soon”.
Don (Doherty)
Hi angel and todd
As I said in a posting a while back, sometimes it seems that we on this forum are sparring with one another using various Scriptures.
So firstly, let’s restate our common ground ie. we all believe in God and we all accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. And I believe all of us are genuinely searching for the truth, I know I am.
I am currently in a traditional Christian church that meets on Sunday and have previously on this forum given strong Scriptural references to show that we are saved by grace and not works, in accordance with the ‘new covenant’.
However, I do share the Armstrong/Weinland position regarding the importance of the Sabbath and the 7 festivals of Leviticus 23 which is largely lost in today’s Christian church, including my own. There is fantastic, faith boosting information in these Festivals/Appointed Times regarding God’s salvation plan which the church is consequently missing out on.
I offer the following points in answer to your recent postings, which I have numbered so you can comment if you wish.
1. The Sabbath day was sanctified (made Holy) by God right there in the first verses of Genesis, so it could not have been just for the Israelites because it would be centuries before they arrived on the scene.
2. In fact, the Israelites in Exodus 20:8 were simply told to REMEMBER the Sabbath day (ie.it was not new but sanctified from the very beginning).
3. God’s laws are very much for our BENEFIT. WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING FOR REASONS WHY THEY DON’T APPLY TO US. When we follow His ways we are ‘blessed’. When we don’t follow His ways we are ‘cursed’ (ie. God’s hand of protection is lifted and Satan is allowed into our lives).
4. Because we are fallen and could never in our own strength live perfect sinless lives, Jesus has paid the price. By faith in what He has done for us and by the receiving of the Holy Spirit we have eternal life. Praise the name of our Lord and Saviour!
5. The ‘New Covenant’ reflects what Jesus has done for us. As part of this, the Holy Spirit comes as our helper in order to KEEP God’s Law and write it on our hearts. So the law is most certainly not done away with. Ref. Rom 3:31: “Do we, then, abolish the law by this faith? OF COURSE NOT! INSTEAD, WE UPHOLD THE LAW.”
6. God’s laws are in two categories, His perfect will and His permissive will. The ‘613 laws’ are a mixture of both types. God’s permissive will was not His perfect will but He had to deal with fallen man in stages. For example, the animal sacrifice system was not his perfect will and neither was circumcision. Also Jesus gave several examples of God’s perfect will when he said, “You have heard it said…….but I say to you………” Now Jesus has come, the Holy Spirit helps us to keep his perfect will and his permissive will no longer applies.
7. The 10 commandments of God are His perfect will and were placed INSIDE the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies. The rest of the commandments were placed BESIDE the ark.
8. The commandment to keep the Sabbath is God’s perfect will and the 4th of the 10 commandments. The first four are related to loving God, the other six are connected with loving our neighbour.
9. Like all of the 10 commandments the Sabbath is for mankind’s BENEFIT. Jesus Himself confirmed this when he said “The Sabbath was MADE FOR MAN….” Then He continued by saying “…….and not man for the Sabbath”. But He wasn’t saying we didn’t need to keep it he was referring to the way the Sabbath had been twisted and distorted by the Pharisees. (ie they had added numerous ridiculous laws of their own about what constituted work etc).
10. Regarding the Colossians 2 Scripture, as I already said, this can be understood as UPHOLDING God’s festivals if the whole context of the passage is taken into account. Basically, Paul was trying to encourage a fledgeling church which had been infiltrated by heathen ideas. This is clear in the verse 8 reference to ‘traditions of men’ and ‘basic philosophies of the world’.
11. Jesus Himself, who kept God’s Law perfectly, kept the Sabbath.
12. The Apostles and the early Christian church still kept the Sabbath as referenced in several places in the New Testament.
13. The Sabbath (as well as the New Moon festivals) are referred to in Scripture for a yet future time (Isaiah 66:23).The Feast of Tabernacles is also referred to in Scripture for a yet future time (Zech 14:16). This surely shows they are important and not abolished ?
14. Nowhere in Scripture is God’s Sabbath changed to the first day of the week. The excuse Christians use that Jesus rose on the first day of the week doesn’t even hold water either. If Jesus was in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights then he would have risen on the Saturday. Scripture only says that the tomb was found empty when they went to it early in the morning on the first day of the week.
15. It is true that the Scriptures do not specifically tell us not to worship on Sunday, Christmas or Easter BUT they do tell us when God wants us to worship, which the bulk of the Christian church ignores. Sunday, Christmas and Easter just happen to be all pagan based. Just a coincidence ? Or a satanic seduction away from the laws of God ? It reminded me of a similar seduction in the Garden of Eden ie. “Did God REALLY say you should come before Him on His Sabbaths ? Surely, my pagan holy days are just as good……….”
…………………………………………………………………………………
At the end of the day, it comes down to how we individually read and understand Scripture. I will only say that on this particular issue of the Sabbath and God’s Festivals, and using the evidence of Scripture, that I personally think Ron Weinland and other Armstrong offshoots have an argument which the wider Christian church should not be so ready to dismiss.
I also find interesting, Armstrong’s claim that the lost ten tribes of Israel have become the modern Christian church – but that’s another issue.
Mal,
You can call it sparring; I call it debating or discussing. As long as we are reasoning together and not being contentious this is something the Bible encourages us to do. I believe we do share common ground and sincerely want to believe what is true. The following is my response to the points you brought up:
1. The fact that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day doesn’t mean there was a law in place that had to be kept; there wasn’t. Actually, Gen. 16:23 is the first time we see the word Sabbath used; and the first time we see instructions about keeping it. The Hebrews are being taught what they should do to keep this day, so it’s clear they had never done it before.
2. God said “remember” the Sabbath day, first of all, because they were to observe it every week; second, because God had already instructed them on how to observe it while they were in the wilderness.
3. I 100% agree that the laws are helpful to us, and that no one should be looking for a reason not to follow God’s ways; however, it’s a fact that the law was given to the Jews and is now obsolete, so it should not be automatically assumed that if someone points this out it means they’re looking for an excuse to sin.
4. Amen!
5. As part of the New Covenant, God writes His laws on our hearts and minds, that is true. That is not, however, the same as saying we are under the old covenant with its command to keep the laws which were given to the Jews. Romans 3:31 tells us we establish the law by faith; salvation by grace thru faith does not invalidate the law as in saying it was wrong, rather it confirms the rightness of it. Verses 27 & 28 say “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
6. This response will cover numbers 6-9; I don’t disagree that it’s God’s will that we should follow His ways, and a genuinely repented believer will want to do this, but to say this means we need to keep the old covenant laws is incorrect because that covenant is obsolete and has been replaced by the new covenant. I feel like I’m repeating myself, but you can’t get around this simply by pointing to all the wonderful benefits and lessons to be learned from the law. Regarding Jesus’ comment about the Sabbath being made for man, not man for the Sabbath; I agree He was referring to how the Pharisees had distorted it, not saying it should not be kept – but you bring up an important point – He wasn’t talking about that, so that’s not a verse that can be used in support, either way, of whether or not the Sabbath should be kept.
10. I won’t repeat what I’ve already said about Col. 2:16, but I will say that a lot of the fledgling churches had problems with wrong beliefs that were coming into the church; one of them was legalism, which is what this passage is really about – Paul has consistently taught that we are saved by grace thru faith, not by works; in Gal. 5:4 he said, “You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” In keeping with this statement it makes sense that he taught no one should be judged in food, drink or festivals.
11. This covers 11 and 12; of course Jesus kept the Sabbath and festivals; He was/is a Jew, and so were many of the early Christians. This doesn’t change the fact that Paul taught that the old covenant was obsolete and had been replaced by the new covenant. He also made it clear anyone still keeping those days was not to be judged.
13. You are correct in saying there is a future time when these days will be observed; the Temple will be rebuilt and the sacrificial system reinstituted. God has unfinished business with the Jews; there are promises He has yet to fulfill. No one is saying the Law is not important; only that you can’t be saved by keeping it, that God commanded the Jews to keep it under the old covenant, and that the church is under the new covenant, salvation by grace thru faith, which has replaced the old covenant.
14. Worshiping on Sunday is not so much about “changing” the Sabbath, because you can’t do that, as it is about choosing a day to worship that has significance for the church. As you pointed out, the early Jewish Christians were still observing the Sabbath and the festivals, but it wasn’t easy for them to talk about Jesus while at the Temple; the apostles were imprisoned more than once, beaten, and ordered to cease teaching about Jesus. This is why Christians were meeting in homes, so they could freely teach and speak of Jesus. Regarding Jesus rising on the first day of the week; this is a controversial subject, but Jesus said He would be killed and after 3 days rise again (Mark 8:31); Mark 15:42 tells us He was crucified the day before the Sabbath; John chapter 20 tells us Mary Magdalene discovered the tomb was empty when she arrived there early on the first day of the week. So you’re right, no one knows exactly what time He rose, but He was first seen alive again on the first day of the week, so that should be reason enough to celebrate it, and why it has great significance for us.
15. Did you ever consider that Satan might be trying to ruin the days on which we celebrate Jesus? It makes no sense to me to say don’t celebrate the birth of Jesus or His resurrection, instead, focus only on celebrating days that were a “shadow” of these things. It’s kind of like, when you’re looking forward to the birth of a child, you go to prenatal classes and have baby showers, but once he’s born, you don’t do those things anymore; now you have birthday parties. It’s the natural progression of things. I don’t want to make any accusations about the motives of people who believe the church is doing wrong by not observing the Sabbath or claim that I know what Satan is or is not doing; that would be judging, and possibly bearing false witness, which we are told not to do, and it would not prove anything.
HWA and RW have proven themselves to be false prophets so I don’t listen to anything they have/had to say. I’ll stick with the Bible. I’ve never referred you to any teachers, Mal, because you don’t have to believe them, you only have to believe the Bible.
I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts with you.
God bless you, and have a great week!
wow angel,
Your comments in point 15. I’ve never heard it explained that way. Nice.
Although I don’t have a problem with Christmas and Easter being observed for the purpose of our Lord.
I do see peoples point about santa clause and the easter bunny which distracts from the True meaning of those holidays.
I don’t beat people up about it, my family does it and they know my position on it. But, we can still enjoy eachothers company and observe it the way we choose.
Todd,
I agree with you about Santa Claus and Easter bunnies; that seemed fun when I was like, five, but now I don’t care about that; what I do care about is Jesus. A case could definitely be made, and has been even by people who don’t celebrate these holidays for religious reasons, that they’ve become very commercial. I’m not trying to defend these holidays, as in saying people have to or even should celebrate them and they’re doing something wrong if they don’t; and I don’t have a problem acknowledging the negative aspects associated with them, I just don’t think it’s something Christians should be divided over.
I’ve heard so much discussion about the origins of these days, it’s always given as the primary reason why it’s wrong to celebrate them. When I consider this question, I think about the fact that festivals were being held, way back when, that were centered on false beliefs. Public holidays mean people aren’t working, so if Christians decided to use that time to celebrate something good; why is that a problem? What better reason to celebrate than the birth of Christ and His resurrection?
Agree with it or not, people get time off for these holidays, and make the effort to spend them with family. This is a good time to remind them of Jesus without having to preach to them. Paul said when he was with the Jews, he behaved like the Jews; when with the Gentiles, he acted accordingly. The important thing, I believe, is to perform the ministry that was given to us; reconciling people to God. When I send a card that praises the birth of our Lord to my unbelieving family and friends, I’m sending the message that His coming was a good thing. When I display a manger scene in my home in a prominent place, I’m showing what this celebration is really about for me.
Anyone not comfortable with these holidays should not participate. They won’t be happy, and more than likely people won’t be happy being around them, either. I know how I feel when someone tells me I’m wrong to celebrate these days; an attitude of superiority and judgment usually accompanies their claims that I’m celebrating a pagan holiday.
The fact is, most people are not thinking about that, because our modern holidays bear little resemblance to whatever people were doing way back when. Nobody is worshiping Santa or their decorated tree; nobody believes rabbits really lay eggs, etc. They attach no religious beliefs about Santa or easter bunnies at all; it’s just a time to do something the kids enjoy and be with their families.
I’m sure your family is blessed by your presence at these times, and it’s good that they know where you stand. Whether they want to or not, they’re thinking about Jesus, and not with resentment because you’re sitting around with a long face. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Nice one Mal:The ‘New Covenant’ reflects what Jesus has done for us. As part of this, the Holy Spirit comes as our helper in order to KEEP God’s Law and write it on our hearts. So the law is most certainly not done away with. Ref. Rom 3:31: “Do we, then, abolish the law by this faith? OF COURSE NOT! INSTEAD, WE UPHOLD THE LAW.” The Apostles and the early Christian church still kept the Sabbath as referenced in several places in the New Testament. At the end of the day, it comes down to how we individually read and understand Scripture. I will only say that on this particular issue of the Sabbath and God’s Festivals, and using the evidence of Scripture, that I personally think Ron Weinland and other Armstrong offshoots have an argument which the wider Christian church should not be so ready to dismiss.Mal they have a good argument because Herbert W Armstrong was the Paster General of the Church Of God in the second last era of the Church age of Philidelphia.The “World Wide Church Of God”, before the apostacy, and was the one and only “Body Of Christ”(before the apostacy).The question is who now in the Church age of Laodicea has the mantle of the one and only “True Church” “The Body of Christ” Take a good read of (Romans 11:8) (One can only be guided by the Holy Spirit).If one has gone through a heart redering full repentance by a unrelenting zeal to search for the “Truth”,then the Holy Spirit will not lead one in to deception.But to the Body of Christ to study towards Baptism and a laying of hands to receive the full Anointing of the Holy Spirit.If any one was predestined to be “Called” out of Babylon or Egypt ,then they will be.
I also find interesting, Armstrong’s claim that the lost ten tribes of Israel have become the modern Christian church – but that’s another issue.Mal not the modern Christian Church but a large part of the general populace of the whole English speaking world ,even us kangaroos here in Australia.Mal there is only one issue and that is all of the “Truth”.Yes,“Booklet’s” rock ,as long as they are from Churches that uphold the Truth,or most of it.Every person has to find their own way.It is not up to me to convince minds.All I want to do is to spark minds to investigate and try to invigorate them to search for the truth for them selves and to make them aware not to be complacent to think that they are already at the truth in their own minds.Booklets again ,as long as it derives from “Armstrongism”Check out Flurry’s Britain and America in Prophecy.
Holding to truth would never be a sign to men. People are usually turned off by what true Christians believe “because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom. 8:7). The truth is not attractive to anyone not called by God (I Cor. 2:14). However, seeing people show genuine concern for one another turns no one off and is attractive to all. Anyone reading this book, who doubts this, may attempt to “cast” a few “pearls” (of Bible truth) at someone (Matt. 7:6). Watch the reaction. Then try showing love to them when they do not expect it. The lesson will be learned.
Consider! True Christians are led by the Holy Spirit—called the “Comforter” and the “Spirit of truth” (John 14:16-17; 15:26; 16:13). This same Spirit of truth “will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). That is the only Church where both God’s Spirit of truth and the Christian can be “comfortable.” The Holy Spirit will also lead all true Christians into the knowledge of real godly love. Galatians 5:22 reveals that love is a “fruit of the Spirit.” Romans 5:5 explains that such fruit is possible in a Christian’s mind only because God’s Spirit has put it there.
Romans 13:10 states, “Love is the fulfilling of the law.” I John 5:3 adds this, removing all doubt: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.” It will be clear to others that you have love, because they will see you fulfilling God’s laws toward your fellow man. Understanding real Christian love—what it is—how it is expressed—its relationship to law—its part in being the light of the world—is in itself also a great truth!
Let’s now carefully examine an important verse: “He that says, I know Him, and keeps not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (I John 2:4). Pause and consider this before continuing. Verse 5 speaks about people who claim to be Christians—to “know Him”—but who neither keep the commandments nor have “truth” in them. The world is filled with professing Christians who claim to “know Jesus in their heart” but who have no interest whatsoever in understanding the true doctrines of the Bible. Now, focus carefully on Christ’s words: “But whosokeeps HIS [Christ’s] word; in him [that person] verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.”
Real love cannot be perfected in those who are not keeping Christ’s word—His recorded instruction—the truth. The true love of God is only perfected in people who ARE doing this! Remember John 8:31. God’s servants must always “continue in” or “keep” God’s word. No wonder Jesus taught, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matt. 4:4; Luke 4:4).
The Greek word for “keep,” tereo, means “to watch or to guard (from loss or injury) by keeping the eye upon…to detain in custody.” Will you determine to keep the truths of God’s Word in your “custody”? Will you then be prepared to “guard” it from “loss or injury”? Are you becoming convicted about keeping your “eyes” continually upon it? If so, then you will later (at baptism) be “sanctified” by that Word of truth (John 17:17). Only in this way can you first become and then remain Christ’s disciple!
Remember! Truth is the umbrella that stands over love. Love springs from truth—not the other way around! It is no coincidence that Matthew 22:37-39 says, “love your neighbor as yourself,” after the verse says, “love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” Certainly, none who reject God or His truth love Him. Therefore, genuine love for “neighbor” will also be absent.
Yes. I do like to paste and cut,it save possible repetitive strain injury.Mal you may be interested in this,if you do not already know about it.http://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/ Kind Regards: Roger
You’re absolutely right, Roger; it’s not your job, or mine, to change anyone’s mind. I’m not trying to be difficult or evasive by not responding to your booklets, it’s my habit to trust only the Bible, so I don’t read other books with a view to putting my trust in them – ever.
The problem I have when people refer me to books other than the Bible is that they seem to put these books on the same level as the Bible, and I won’t do that. You’ve made it clear that it’s books by these particular men that are the “must reads”; clearly you’ve made up your mind to follow these men, and that concerns me.
I’ve explained that I won’t listen to the words of false prophets, and you continue to sing their praises. Every time you mention HWA and RW, all I can think is that I’ve seen lists of over two hundred prophecies HWA was wrong about, and RW, although way behind, is on his way to having an impressive record of failed prophecies too.
You’ve expressed so consistently the importance of being obedient to the law, why do you ignore one of the most important ones; the test of a prophet?
I have zero tolerance for false prophets; I will not ignore Deut. 18:20-22. Once a prophet has been proven false I don’t want to hear another word that comes out of his mouth. I’m continually amazed when people, knowing someone like RW has failed to prophesy accurately, will still listen to him because they’re so in love with his teachings. How anyone can think God would communicate His truths thru a false prophet is beyond me.
RW’s prophecies have failed, yet he’s unrepentant. His church members have disregarded the clear teachings of scripture about false prophets and continue to follow him, yet he mocks them for expecting a physical fulfillment of his prophecies, even though that was exactly what he told them to expect. He won’t allow anyone but tithe paying members to attend his services; he won’t even baptize them until they’re paying tithes – I find that appalling and no different than the TV preachers who make their living by selling what should not be for sale.
I don’t know much about the other COG men you’ve mentioned so I have no opinion about them, but I don’t follow teachers and I don’t read booklets that people hold in such high regard, that’s a danger signal to me.
I’ve not read anywhere in the Bible that one must learn to be a prophet thru trial and error; that eventually they’ll get it right. There are still people waiting to see if some of RW’s other prophecies come to pass and I’m thinking, you don’t get it – he was not speaking for God, and he’s unrepentant – how is it that someone can be so fearful of not celebrating an old covenant festival, but they’re not afraid to listen to a false prophet?
Roger, as I said before I’m happy to have a discussion with you, but not your booklets. If you parrot what others say that indicates you’re taking their word for it; I want to see what is coming out of your heart, not theirs.
God Bless!
Q:How is it that someone can be so fearful of not celebrating an old covenant festival, but they’re not afraid to listen to a false prophet? A: Because they are afraid of any form of law braking against the commandments of God (Yahwey Elohim). With obedience one receives Gods favour and intern, assistance to over come all things. I have come across that statement in scripture somewhere?A “few” of the Paster Generals of the “Armstrong” Worldwide Church of God splinters have a sound knowledge of the “Truth” and of what is unfolding up to the establishment of the Kingdom Of God here on Earth.Only the Holy Spirit can leed one in the truth around deception.I have found in my travels that the first deception to overcome was “Traditional Christianity” along with my own interpretations and some times self-righteous understandings and limited knowledge. The second and far more sinister deception has been, and still is the End-Time“False Prophets”,because they were in or should have been in the “Body Of Christ”,just like Joe Tkach Sr before the Apostacy when Herbert W Armstrong was the Paster General of the Worldwide Church Of God. They all think that they have the ‘Truth’,but only one Church will have.Jesus started only one Church in 31AD.The majority always follow with what is the most obvious just like the Church that is the most obvious in the world of “Traditional Christianity”.
Roger,
Grace is “unmerited favor”. Salvation is by grace thru faith; it can’t be earned by obedience. Keeping the law was never going to be the way by which one could be saved. You said, “with obedience one receives God’s favor and intern, assistance to overcome all things”, that sounds more like one of your booklets than something in scripture; can you provide the reference?
My question to you was why do you ignore God’s law concerning the test of a prophet?
You’re fearful not to observe festivals, you’re fearful of “traditional Christianity”, but you’re not afraid to listen to false prophets such as HWA and RW. How can you think God would communicate His truth thru false prophets?
How can you think any pastors that sat under a false prophet could possibly have the truth? You’re deceived my friend, and it’s clear the deception was possible the moment you took yourself out from under God’s protection in Deut. 18:20-22.
Angle:Thank you for the reply.I know now that I am on the right parth.I have now got to continue my studies on the history of the Church of God in the Church age of Thyatira under the leadership of Peter Waldo in the 1100’s.
Hi Roger
We seem to share some common ground. I do agree with you that there can only be one truth and only one way. Jesus in fact is that only way, truth and life, as He told us. So if He kept the Sabbath (and also the early Christian church), it seems logical to me that we too should recognise the importance of the Sabbath.
I agree with what Ron Weinland says in his books, that our world is full of different religions and also different Christian churches, each thinking they have the truth. So there is deception going on in all or most of them to a greater or lesser degree.
As we all know, RW has made the bold and startling claim that his own church (Church of God PKG) is the only church that actually does have the whole truth.
Much of his teaching is highly controversial. For example, that most (if not all) of modern day tongues is satanic gibberish; Jesus didn’t die on a cross but on a stake; the trinity is a false doctrine etc. The majority of the mainstream Christian churches have never even heard of Joseph Tkach Snr, and yet Weinland claims that Tkach was the ‘man of sin’ spoken of in 2Thess2:3-4.
Eighteen months ago, those of us prepared to give him a chance were waiting to see if his prophecies would begin to be fulfilled. If they had, I would probably by now be getting serious about joining his church. However, to date numerous prophecies have failed. In fact, I am struggling to think of ANY that has come to pass.
I found the 50th ‘truth’ which he came up with in mid-2008 particularly interesting, since it did appear to be based on a remarkable numerical fit with Scripture; the main point being that there were exactly 1335 days between the Feast of Trumpets 2008 and Pentecost 2012, when Weinland claims Jesus will return.
Since his prophecies have so far not been fulfilled, the 50th truth is presumably the main thing keeping his followers interested. And yet, if the Lord’s calendar is actually lunar not solar (see my posting dated July 24th), surely Weinlands case for the 50th ‘truth’ falls apart too? (unless, with the 1335 days Daniel prophecy, God was actually taking account how today’s calendar would look).
In any case, Weinland’s make or break in the eyes of his own church is surely fast approaching. Pentecost 2012 is clearly the absolute deadline, but to keep even his most ardent followers interested, real physical signs of the ‘great tribulation’ must surely have to appear very soon?
It seems that this coming Saturday, on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, he will deliver ‘God’s message’ about the true meaning of ‘time, times and half a time’ given in Scripture. Presumably, this will inform his church why the ‘great tribulation’ is not following the expected pattern. I am interested enough to hear him out, so I will be listening.
I have been reading your postings, so I guess this will sound quite negative to you. My own feeling is that ‘Armstrongism’ does have some very good points, particularly the 7000 year plan of God as shown in the Sabbath and God’s Festivals. I am also convinced by world events that we are getting close to midnight on the prophetic clock and the dawn of ‘the Millenium’.
Hallelujah!
ps. Thanks for the web link. I will check it out.
Roger,
I hope the fact that you didn’t respond to my question about the test of a false prophet means you’ve recognized the error of listening to men like HWA and RW.
God bless!
Mal,
It sounds like you’re at least willing to acknowledge that RW’s prophecies have not come to pass as he said; I can’t tell you how many times I’ve conversed with people who refuse to do that. They’ll ignore the question time and again; falling back on the old “traditional Christianity” tirade, I’m guessing to distract attention from the fact that they’re failing to answer. Then if you still don’t back off of it, they shut up and go away.
Before I was a Christian I was hung up on the issue of all the different churches and what they teach; I had no idea how to figure out who was right. God made it real simple for me; believe the Bible. I like keeping it simple and trusting only in God’s word because it protects me from deception. I don’t put my trust in a pastor, any one particular church group, literature other than the Bible, or sensational sounding teachings full of complicated doctrines and time frames. When I hear someone say you have to believe our teachings, our pastor/teacher; or be a member of our church – to be saved; I’m out of there. Typically that is a group that wants to control people by fear of hell or disfellowship if you don’t meet THEIR requirements.
Pastors, teachers and churches are supposed to be a good thing, and they can be; I believe each one should be evaluated individually – that’s what Jesus did when He wrote letters to 7 churches.
Are you interested in hearing what RW has to say this coming Sat. out of curiosity only, or are you still thinking his 50th “truth” has merit? He’s not the only teacher out there who likes to amaze people with fascinating time frames; they’ve tried to predict/prophesy based on their numerical timelines too, and been wrong. Having failed, most have set their new dates in 2012 like RW. Since they’ve all failed to set an accurate date, it’s a pretty safe bet they’re wrong this time, too.
I keep wondering what it’s going to take for those still hanging in there to see what was apparent the first time they failed. I’ve read the accounts of what happens to false prophets, and knowing what God’s attitude is toward those who follow them makes me shake in my boots; no way do I want any part of that. I see nothing in the Bible that tells me anything good can come from a false prophet.
Have a great evening!
Mal: I do not listen to Weinland anymore.I must confess that my unrelenting search for the truth ,did draw me to come across Mr Ronald Weinland. I perused his second publication first,as you stated in regards to his material with great interest.Then I was very disappointed to find on one of his web sites that the book titled “The Prophesied End Time” was not in print at the time of request.So I decided to bite the bullet, so to speak and use a lot of Ink and paper to downloaded the book via PDF.This book in July 2009 blew my spiritual mind.I had never concentrated on a book with such conviction in my entire life.I went over it with a proverbial fine tooth comb at leased five times. When I came to the (Ephesians 2:19-22) over the first read I broke down in front of my wife and little children.I have never had such a heart shattering humbling experience of acceptance as I came to the realization that I had been “called” partly sactified by the Holy Spirit to be guided with further study and possibly some further trial towards baptism.I was eventually accepted by them and put in contact with the Melbourne Australian based PKG- COG appointee Mr Wayne Mathews.Lovely man but quite the sherif for Mr Weinland.Mr Weinland stated that on the fifth thunder in Revelation the other leaders of the Apostate COG’S will die by supernatural means as he stated Joeseph Tkach snr did, exactly 40 sabbaths after he gave his notorious speach? Are Roderick Meredith & Richard Ames,Gerrald Flurry, David Pack and John Ritenbaugh still alive?Im sure when one of them dies as they are getting older he will make a loud noise. PKG-COG was found to be in gross error in a few ways.They did recoup their monies for their litrature I now possess through one tithe.Wayne did give me a paperback copy of the first book over coffee.Mal please let me know your via your unbiased opinions the outcome to the future word of Mr Ronald Weinland.By the fulfillment of their words we will know the measure of them!
Angle and Todd:Broad and Easy—or Narrow and Straight?
This world’s “Christianity” can only offer a broad, easy, and often “come as you are” way. The Bible describes that way as having a wide entrance leading to destruction. The true way is straight and narrow and only a few are finding it (Matt. 7:13-14).
There are thousands of supposed “Christian” churches. There is a flavor of “Christianity” for all the tastes a person might have. Millions feel they have heard about and know the true Jesus Christ. By just “believing in” and “professing” Christ, all consider themselves Christian.
Yet in real Christianity, being a true Christian goes far beyond simple belief. It is much more than just knowing about Jesus, or believing that He existed. It is not just believing in a set of doctrines. It is actually living daily the Bible’s Truth. It is a way of life founded on the Ten Commandments and all the laws of God.
Most of the world looks at God’s Law as bondage. However, the love that God has for us is shown in His Commandments, and we receive blessings for obeying them (I John 5:3). God’s Law is a Law of liberty; when we keep it, it frees us from the bondage of the hurtful and destructive ways of this world (Jms. 2:8, 12).
A person who is really living the Christian way of life shows their love for God by keeping His laws—all of them (John 14:15).
When a person lives this way of life, he stands out as being different. God does not want His people to be conformed to the ways of this world (Rom. 12:2), but wants them to be transformed by the renewing of their minds by His Word. With His Spirit in them, it is possible for them to change.
Still, true Christians are not perfect, but are striving to be. Perfect people are not the criteria for identifying the true Church. Its teachings are.
if you say so roger…believe what you want
I will continue to follow Christ the way I have and continually be blessed.
I’m sure he will take into account your desire to seek the truth and you are saved for that reason and that reason alone.
Just keep your focus on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and don’t let the other “distractions” get you side tracked.
Roger,
I was raised in a church that believes much the way you do, so I’m very familiar with those sentiments. They had the same disdainful attitude toward all those “supposed” Christian churches who think it’s so easy to live the Christian life, and believed they were the only church who had the truth.
Having become a Christian myself, I found living for God and following His ways was both the easiest and the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Easy, because I now want to be like Him; hard, because I have to deny myself to do it. If I wanted to continue living the way I was, I wouldn’t have repented; the Holy Spirit convicted me and the full realization of my sinful state and need for God was life-changing.
“By just ‘believing in’ and ‘professing’ Christ, all consider themselves Christian.”
Boy, that takes me back; I can’t tell you how many times I heard that, growing up. Being a true Christian STARTS with believing; but I would never downplay that aspect because it is a major factor throughout the Christian life. My father started in on me with all that when he realized I would not be attending his church as a new Christian, but several years later he admitted my life was changed and he’d observed that I was devoted to Christ. That was a big deal, coming from someone who believes the way he does.
I don’t disagree with everything you say, but there’s a point at which we begin to differ. I discovered that so many of the things I’d been told about other Christians, about the way they think and believe and live, were simply not true. This is not to say it’s not true for some, there’s always going to be people whose lives don’t line up with scripture, but to put all Christians who don’t agree with your own belief in one group and make a blanket statement about all of them is not only unproductive, but unfair and disingenuous.
When I read your post describing the experience you had when reading one of RW’s books, it reminded me of the experience I had when reading the Bible. I had a couple of Mormons come to my door recently, telling me that if I read the Book of Mormon it would bring me “closer to God”. They gave me a token “oh, we believe the Bible, too”, but all they wanted to talk about was the BOM. I asked them straight out what this book says that I NEED TO KNOW. They could only come up with one thing, and interestingly, it was contrary to what the Bible teaches.
I’ve never been drawn to other books, and I never will be. They’re helpful as resources, nothing more. When someone tries to push a book on me; saying I must read this to understand the Bible, I must read this to know something God didn’t tell us in His word, I know immediately that this is a book I must never trust. And every time that has happened, and I see the deception contained in that book and the mesmerizing effect it has on its readers; I know I made the right choice.
I appreciate hearing your own thoughts on what you believe; you seem to have a loving heart, I think some of the hard statements you make about other Christians are the result of the teachings you’ve embraced.
Have a good day and God bless!
The Super Deceiver
To the unlearned, the Bible is a book of shocking statements. It reveals startling truths, completely unknown even to those who profess to understand it. But there are few statements more astonishing than that found in Revelation 12:9. This verse directly states that Satan the devil—who does exist—“deceives the whole world.”
As “prince of the power of the air” (Eph. 2:2), Satan has influenced, guided, controlled and completely deceived the unsuspecting masses.
This is an absolutely staggering revelation—so much so that most simply ignore or reject it, believing that it cannot possibly be true. But it is in your Bible. And the entire world remains deceived about the fact that it is deceived!
The greatest single doctrine in the Bible is the knowledge of the true gospel. Understand. There is only one correct gospel. All others are perversions designed by Satan to replace the incredible truth of its Message. It is this enormous understanding that Satan’s ministers always seem to pervert first.
At the very beginning of His ministry, Christ taught, “Repent you, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15). But what is the true gospel? Is there more than one that God approves? The answers to these and other questions about the gospel are found in the Bible—and they are absolutely VITAL for you to understand. But the answers have remained hidden from the vast majority.
Thousands of new books on religion are published each year in America! And there are over two thousand separate denominations and sects in America, as well! Yet, there has never been more confusion and disagreement among professing Christians, or in the world as a whole, about the true answers to life’s biggest problems. WHY? Why is there so much knowledge available, while at the same time so much ignorance of the truth about life’s BIG questions? The answers to these questions have everything to do with the gospel!
The vast majority have been taught—and believe—that the gospel is merely about the Person of Jesus Christ. Certainly, Christ’s role is an extremely important subject, but He is not the gospel. The Bible shows that Christ is preached in conjunction with the gospel. Again, His role is vital to Christianity and must be understood, but He is not the gospel!
Some proclaim a “gospel of salvation” or “gospel of grace.” Others believe a “gospel of miracles” or a “social gospel” or a “gospel of foods” or “healing” or “faith.” Still others merely think of “gospel music” when they hear this word. These are all man-made ideas that ignore the truth of the Bible!
Let’s return to Mark 1, and notice verse 14: “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of god.” This is the gospel Jesus preached. And it was in the same context that He said, “Repent you, and believe the gospel.” Again, what gospel? The gospel of the “kingdom of God.” Verse 1 refers to this message when it states, “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” Christ’s gospel was about the kingdom of god—not something else! One must believe that gospel, not a counterfeit or substitute. The world simply does not know of this gospel!
Few comprehend. But why? Why do so few today grasp the awesome future of the Christian calling? Paul was inspired to explain: “But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love Him. But God has revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God” (I Cor. 2:9-10). Without God opening the mind, it is impossible to understand any of the things of God. It is also impossible to even come to God (John 6:44, 65). Quite literally, this verse states that God’s purpose has never entered man’s thinking!
God, for His own marvelous purpose at this time, has opened the truth of the gospel to a very few—and has put them into His Church. The rest of the world remains blinded. Understand this! The devildoes not want human beings to enjoy what is forever denied to him—membership in the God Family.
Most will not wake up to the deception—the mass delusion—of a seduced Christianity that denies the plain truths of the Bible! God’s plan for mankind is staggering—incomparable to anything human beings have devised to replace it. The world ignores plain, clear scriptures found throughout God’s Word about the kingdom of God. This booklet explains the astonishing truth that so many ignore—and reveals what can be your future!
Beware the “Booklet”(Interesting word beware).Look Out.Mind. Watch out.I perfer. (Be Aware).Mindful or Conscious of. .Wise.Awake.Sentient.Conversant.Knowing.Cognizant.
Hi Angel
I have just read your message to Roger. My own experience with Christianity was that it really came alive for me about twelve years ago when I was shown that God actually has a salvation plan and a timetable. There are absolute gems in the Old Testament, such as how the 7 day week is related to God’s 7000 year salvation plan. How the 7 festivals of Leviticus 23 relate to Jesus and what he did at His first coming and what He will do at His second coming. What will occur in the Millenium and when the two resurrections will occur. What Moses Tabernacle symbolises etc.
I feel I was very fortunate to be shown all this because very few of our mainstream Christian churches get this information. It is more common, I find, to get snippets of information about how, for example, we will ‘go to heaven’ if we ‘accept Jesus’. Until I was shown God’s plan, I didn’t even realise that our final destiny is to live on planet earth not in heaven; the kind of planet earth that God originally intended. All this really fired up my faith, when I saw that there was some logic to it all.
Anyway, thanks for commenting on my recent posting.
Here are my comments on your comments (numbering as before).
1. Genesis 2 vs 3, “And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it”. Two Hebrew words here can be looked up in Strong’s Concordance: “blessed” and “sanctified”.
Blessed = kneel, by implication to bless God as an act of adoration and vice versa AS A BENEFIT TO MAN FROM SO DOING.
Sanctified = appointed, consecrated, dedicated, hallowed, BE OR KEEP HOLY.
This tells me that there was a law to be kept regarding the Sabbath from the earliest times. This law was for all mankind, not just for Israel as this was long before they came on the scene. Again, we call it law but the Hebrew word Torah actually means ‘pointing the way’ and is for man’s benefit.
When it says things about the early patriarchs like ‘Enoch walked with God’, ‘Noah was perfect’, I personally believe that it meant they were following God’s instructions which would have included keeping the Sabbath.
2. The word REMEMBER in Exodus 20:8 was clearly telling the Israelites to remember the Sabbath right back to the time of Genesis not just from their time in the wilderness. Read on to verse 11.
3. When you say ‘the law was given to the Jews’, I assume you mean ‘Israelites’ since there were 12 tribes not just Jews. I cannot agree with you that the ten commandments (which includes the Sabbath) are obsolete. However, other laws like circumcision, animal sacrificing etc., I agree are obsolete.
4. Amen!
5. I don’t think we disagree on this. Yes, there is a vast difference between the ‘New Covenant’ and the ‘Old Covenant’. Before Jesus came, the Israelites agreed before God that they would keep all His laws. That was impossible in their own strength. We need the ‘Holy Spirit’ as our helper, which we receive as part of the ‘New Covenant’. Also, of course, through the ‘New Covenant’ we are saved and receive eternal life by faith in what Christ has done.
6-9. I stand by what I said. In summary, the ten commandments (including the Sabbath) are not obsolete. They were given not just for the Israelites, they were given for the benefit of the whole of mankind. There is an ongoing principle in the Bible. When we live according to God’s ways, it is to our advantage and we keep the satanic powers at bay. Yes, we are saved by faith in Christ, not by works. But true faith in Christ produces good works in us and helps us keep God’s laws.
10. Your linking of Colossians and Galations I consider spurious. Galations is clearly about Jews trying to insist that Gentiles are circumcised. Circumcision is indeed done away with under the New Covenant, so it was valid for Paul to warn them not to come back under the law. The same does not apply to God’s Sabbath’s which are referred to in Colossians.
11-12. For you to say ‘Of course Jesus kept the Festivals because Jesus was a Jew’, I find to be very strange logic. Jesus was the Son of God, who kept God’s laws perfectly. Jesus is our brother. God’s whole objective in all of us is that eventually we all come to the ‘measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ’(Ephesians 4:13) ie. keeping God’s laws perfectly. Most will never achieve that full stature in this life, but that is the eventual goal in the next life when we are resurrected.
13. Zech 14:16 clearly refers to ‘all the nations’ that will celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles in the future, so it is not just Jews.
14. You said: “Worshiping on Sunday …….. is about choosing a day to worship that has significance for the church”. I contend that the church should be obeying God, not ‘choosing’ a day.
15. You said, “Did you ever consider that Satan might be trying to ruin the days on which we celebrate Jesus?”
This is reverse logic if I ever heard any. As I see it, what is really happening here is that the CREATED is saying to the CREATOR, “We don’t see any reason why we can’t come before you when WE want”. “WE don’t see it makes any difference”. “If Christmas brings people to Jesus that must be ok”.
But that is man’s logic (influenced by Satan). Satan must be clapping his hands with glee because he has succeeded in diverting the church away from God’s Festivals to his own festivals which contain no information at all about God’s salvation plan. My belief is that if the church repented and abandoned Christmas and instead kept God’s ordained Festivals, the Almighty would most likely bring multitudes more to Jesus than Christmas ever achieves.
………………………………………………………………………….
Anyway angel, thanks for your feedback. I’m enjoying the dialogue and by hearing the views of yourself and others I can learn things. God bless.
Roger,
“The vast majority have been taught—and believe—that the gospel is merely about the Person of Jesus Christ. Certainly, Christ’s role is an extremely important subject, but He is not the gospel. The Bible shows that Christ is preached in conjunction with the gospel. Again, His role is vital to Christianity and must be understood, but He is not the gospel!”
This is where we part company; there’s no reconciling this, Roger – it is gross error. Jesus is not just an important player in the gospel; He is absolutely the gospel! Without Him there is no good news! The Bible clearly states that EVERYTHING was created FOR Him and BY Him.
Discussing the importance of the law, the Sabbath and festivals is one thing – this is the deal breaker.
If this if the vital information that’s been hidden from the vast majority I’m supremely thankful. Your booklets are even worse than I thought.
I pray you will turn from this, Roger, and put your trust in our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Mal,
I believe God has a salvation plan and a timetable; I just don’t believe the teachers who claim to know more than what is clearly taught in the Bible. I don’t know what church(es) you’ve attended over the years, but several that I’ve been to taught the festivals, symbolism of the Tabernacle, end-times, etc. I also don’t believe that only a few select churches “get” information. James said if you lack wisdom, ask God; so knowledge is there for the asking, it’s not just for a privileged few.
This kind of thing seems to appeal to people who aren’t content with what God told us in the Bible; they want to know more. Who doesn’t? But wanting to and needing to are two different things. When wanting to know more than God has already told us causes one to trust in a teacher who is claiming to have information from God that no one else has, that’s when you’re headed for trouble. That’s when I see people’s trust subtly shifting from God to man; from the Bible to some other literature.
I won’t go thru and comment on all of your feedback because we’ll just end up going around in circles, so I’ll just say the following:
1. When I say “Jews”, I’m referring to the physical descendants of Isaac’s son Jacob. Jacob’s 12 sons formed the 12 tribes and it is they to whom God gave the land of Israel and who are called the children of Israel (God called Jacob Israel). In regard to your statement that the Sabbath was for all mankind, not just for the Jews, Ex. 31:16,17 says this, “Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’” The Jews who practice Judaism, as we know, continue to keep the Sabbath, as they were instructed by God.
2. I said law, but what I meant to say was that the new covenant made the old one obsolete, thanks for pointing that out. I found something on the Jews for Jesus website that I thought was a good explanation of how the law pertains to us today: “The Mosaic Constitution or Covenant was made up of four main elements: (1) the moral aspect of the Ten Commandments, (2) the sacrificial, (3) the juridical with its civil and criminal law codes, and (4) the models of worship and lifestyle, i.e., the holidays, dietary and other practices. Once the Messiah came to fulfill the sacrificial element of the Law, and furthermore when the Temple was lost, there could no longer be any Mosaic Law as a packaged unit of the four elements. In no way, however, are all the elements of the Law done away with. The moral law, now a part of the New Covenant, is written upon the believer’s heart through the work of the Holy Spirit. The sacrificial element is subsumed under the ministry of Jesus so that in his death we see all five Levitical sacrifices. The juridical aspect does not play a part inasmuch as followers of Y’shua are not a nation which enforces civil and criminal law codes. However, the elements of the Law which remain problematic are the models of worship and lifestyle. “ Basically what he’s saying here is that people are still arguing over how the law should be lived out. (look, Roger, I cut and pasted something!) Understand I’m not presenting this as something you have to believe, it’s just for your consideration.
3. I agree that all of God’s laws are not just for the Jews, but there were some that were given specifically to them under the old covenant and which have now been done away with, such as animals being sacrificed, circumcision and the dietary restrictions. The laws by which we should live are written by God on our hearts; we call them principles and yes, our faith should produce works based on these principles.
4. Jesus was indeed a Jew, and God in the flesh. He kept the law because He was a Jew and out of obedience to God, but because the old covenant is now obsolete there are some things He was doing that we are not required to do.
5. Zech. 14:16 refers to a time, yet in the future, after the Second Coming of Jesus, when all nations will go up to worship and keep the feast. In that day, the Lord will be king over all the earth, not just over Israel as He was when they took possession of the land He had given them. The temple will have been rebuilt by then, and the civil and criminal aspects of the law will be enforced. Ezekiel tells us about some changes from what was being done under the old covenant; only 3 of the Levitical feasts will be celebrated; Passover, Unleaved Bread, and Tabernacles, and a “prince” will prepare the sin, grain, burnt and peace offerings to make atonement for the House of Israel. So, yes, I agree that at this point in time we will see all the nations keeping these laws and observing the feasts. This was not the case when God made His covenant with Israel.
6. My comment about choosing a day to worship God was directed at the idea of changing the Sabbath, which is not possible.
7. Saying Satan might be trying to ruin the days on which we celebrate Jesus was indeed reverse logic; and that’s kind of my point, comments like that are based on opinion or human logic, not fact. You’ve stated categorically that Satan is doing this and Satan is doing that, as if you had inside information. I was turning the tables a bit just to give you an idea of how it sounds. It’s a scare tactic, plain and simple, and although I’d be willing to agree Satan is always happy to see division among Christians, I think it’s wrong to arbitrarily invoke Satan’s involvement to support your point of view.
8. In regard to your statement that if the church kept the festivals it would bring multitudes more to Jesus, well, how many multitudes did they bring to God? They’re still being celebrated today by some; I hope they are drawing people to Jesus. My own opinion is that it is the love of Jesus shining in the life of Christians that will draw people more than any festival or holiday.
I’m enjoying the discussion too, and I’m learning a lot from it; although I don’t agree with everything you believe, I can see why you think the way you do, and that helps me understand where you’re coming from.
Peace, brother!
What Paul Preached
Paul preached the kingdom of God to the gentiles. Yet, some believe that he preached a “different” gospel—again, unaware that it was Paul who pronounced a curse on anyone who did this (Gal. 1:8-9). However, while Paul preached the kingdom of God, notice two verses in Acts showing that he did not neglect the subject of Christ’s role in the salvation process.
First, Acts 19:8 establishes which gospel he preached: “And he went into the synagogue, and spoke boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” In many of his epistles, he taught the kingdom to Gentile congregations. His message was always the same. He continually preached, taught and referred to the kingdom of God.
Next, Paul states in Acts 20:25, 21, “I have gone preaching the kingdom of God…repentance toward God, AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” He preached the same gospel to both Jew and Gentile.
Now notice Acts 28:30-31: “And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, AND teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Luke, the writer of Acts, differentiates between preaching about the kingdom of God and preaching about Jesus Christ! While both are vitally important, they are clearly two separate subjects!
In Acts 8:12, the deacon Philip also preached both of these same teachings: “But when they believed Philip…concerning the kingdom of God, AND the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” We see that Philip not only preached the kingdom of God, but he also differentiated it from the teaching about Christ. Remember, the messenger is not the message.
Notice that these in Samaria were baptized only after “they believed” the right message—not some human idea about it. Also, Christ’s name was taught as an all-important, but additional, understanding.
Jesus is not the gospel. However, He does stand directly alongside the true gospel and will rule the entire earth when He returns and establishes His kingdom. (Do not lose sight of this!)
Finally, consider another verse where Paul himself made a distinction between the gospel and the person of Christ. II Corinthians 11:4 contains this powerful warning: “For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached…or another gospel which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him” (the margin more correctly renders this last phrase “with me”). Paul wanted the Corinthians to reject false teachers and hold to what he had taught them. The point here is that Paul distinguishes between the teaching of a false Jesus and that of a false gospel. These are—and always have been—two separate things.
Some get confused when they read I Corinthians 15:1-4, thinking that Paul contradicts himself from other passages we have seen by stating that “the gospel” (vs. 1) is “how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day” (vs. 3-4). Simply note that “the gospel” reference in verse 1 is not connected to Christ’s death for our sins and burial in verses 3 and 4. Careful reading reveals this. When correctly understood, rather than saying that Christ is the gospel, this passage confirms the opposite, and supports Acts 8:12, 20:21-25, 28:31 and II Corinthians 11:4!
Since Jesus preached “repent and believe the gospel,” it should now be clear why. His role must always be preached in conjunction with the kingdom of God, because one cannot enter the kingdom unless he understands and accepts that “Christ died for our sins,” and that person has repented of his sins.
Ask yourself: If Christ IS the gospel—is the kingdom of God—then why did Paul (four times) and Philip speak of them as two separate matters?
One Must Be Born Again to Enter the Kingdom .In either, as a firstfruit upon Jesus second coming(The First Resurrection,the Church) or at (The Second Resurrection of Revelation 20)The Great White Throne Judgement ,for the rest of Mankind.We have to be dead in flesh first before resurrection in to spirit beings like our first of the firstfruit brothers Jesus. One can not be “Born Again” while still alive in the flesh.
Paul wrote that Christ is “the firstborn from the dead” (Col. 1:18), and also “the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29). When connected, these verses show that Jesus is merely the firstborn from the dead, with many others to follow. But when, and into what, will they be born?
In John 3:3, Christ said to Nicodemus, “Verily, verily [this means truly, truly], I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” In verse 6, Christ continues, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Simply believe the plain meaning of this verse. One must become spirit to see the kingdom of God. (Read our free booklet What Does “Born Again” Mean?)
Paul taught, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 15:50). The next two verses explain that the resurrection will occur at the Seventh (last) Trumpet, when “the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Christ returns when the Seventh Trumpet (of Revelation 11) blows. This is when the resurrection of the dead will occur. Do not misunderstand this climactic event. People who were once fleshly human beings will be changed into spirit—will be born again—and enter into the kingdom of God. No physical people can enter this kingdom.
John 4:24 states, “God is a Spirit.” Under the Father, Christ leads His kingdom, which is composed of spirit beings. At His Return, Christ, as a member of the God Family, will have many younger “brothers and sisters,” who will have qualified to rule with Him.
Think of it this way: There is a plant kingdom, an animal kingdom, human kingdoms and an angelic kingdom. There is also the kingdom of God.
Now notice Genesis 1:26: “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” When referring to themselves, the One speaking says, “Us,” “Our” and “Our.” This is proof that there is more than one Being in the Godhead—there are presently two! In this scripture, the Hebrew word for God is Elohim. This is a uniplural term like group, team, committee or family. All of these represent one entity, comprised of several members or persons.
Thus, the Bible teaches there is one God, composed of two Persons—the Father and Christ—with many more persons to be added later. The first great time when God will add more sons to His Family is when Christ’s kingdom is established. But entering God’s kingdom will not be automatic for anyone.
Roger,
I’ve asked you questions that you’ve refused to answer. That speaks volumes. I’ve encountered this from many followers of RW; they ignore what is inconvenient for them to answer and introduce another subject to draw attention away from what they don’t want to address.
I asked you straight out why you see fit to disregard God’s command in Deut. 18:20-22. How can you lecture me on the importance of being obedient to God’s laws when you obviously don’t think it’s necessary to obey this one?
Now that you’ve revealed your attitude toward and belief about Jesus, it all becomes clear; this is why, even though you give Him lip service, in essence He’s just your brother and you will one day be a “god” like Him yourself. This is what cults do; reduce Jesus’ status and exalt men to His level. This sounds frighteningly similar to the Mormon belief that God was once a man like us, who earned godhood by following Mormon law.
The Mormons who came to my door said they’re Christians “too”; but they define their terms differently than I do – we don’t agree on Who Jesus is, so in reality we’re not brothers in Christ.
Just for the record; I don’t agree with the doctrines contained in your booklets. If you’ve chosen to embrace them, that is up to you, but I want nothing to do with them because I won’t listen to doctrines that come from cults and false prophets.
http://www.ronaldweinland.info/