Hi everybody… My first “meaty” posting onto The Weinland Witness will be of the biggest nagging controversy that both believers and non-believers alike have been struggling with, believers struggling because they’re trying to get the non-believers to grasp and understand why the timing has been the way that is has, and non-believers struggling because they’re trying to get the believers to understand why Mr. Weinland is already a false-prophet end-of-story. Both sides of this equation can be quite very compelling as well as frustrating because we all would like for each other to understand and believe what we’re saying, now wouldn’t we ? I am beginning with this subject of timing because this stands at the crux between people believing or not believing Mr. Weinland’s prophethood from God.
On the surface of this issue, it would seem to be very understandable why Mr. Weinland has been deemed as a false prophet by so very many persons, because the events that he wrote about did not come to pass during the time-frame which he had originally given. If this was all I was examining, then I too would deem him as a false prophet, but more should be examined to judge the whole entire picture of this. After examining this bigger picture, it is still up to each and every one of us as to what we decide about Mr. Weinland. I am not here to push my beliefs upon any of you, because I cannot have anybody believe me anyhow, as only God has the ability of opening-up somebody’s mind to bring them to the light of His truth, no human-being has the power to do this, although some will receive the words from believers and will cause their minds to be sparked whereby they desire to examine things more and more further and God opens their mind more and more through the power of His Holy Spirit. I am only here to try imparting both sides of the issues, for both believers and non-believers alike, in as fair of a manner as is possible for me.
It is very understandable why people would discount Mr. Weinland as being God’s prophet when his original time-frame was changed, I mean even I slightly hesitated and at least thought that maybe possibly he was wrong, but there is just too much power in everything else that he has said, so many doctrinal things that make perfect sense regarding the Bible, and the actual timing from the 50th Truth, tying it with the judgement of the Man Of Sin, of Satan, and of mankind, and the revelation just keeps on coming and coming.
One of the first things that I should talk about is the issue of whether or not God would allow His prophet(s) t0 be in error. One thing that we should remember is that we must adopt a humble spirit of humility, because God works with that kind of mind, one that has been humbled and has a lack of pride. With that, we have to understand the possibility that God is working in a manner that is not understood, the possibility that He does what He does for great purposes. The actual time-line for future events to occur has not changed, it was always gonig to be the current time-line, but Mr. Weinland did not have the full understanding of the actual time-line because God had not yet revealed the truth regarding the timing for the return of Jesus Christ, which is what Mr. Weinland was using to derive his first time-frame, because God’s Church had long believed that Jesus Christ would be returning on the Feast Of Trumpets, but it wasn’t until after Mr. Weinland had already given his original time-frame (through what he had thought to be the truth in God’s Church for decades) that God revealed that Jesus Christ would be returning on Pentecost, on the very day that has always symbolized God’s first-fruits in God’s Kingdom.
Now, if God’s revelation of this timing was withheld, then we have to take our issues to God and not to Mr. Weinland, although there is no way to prove that this timing was indeed withheld, but there are so many great purposes for why God would do this:
#1. There is so much spiritual warefare being waged out here, the likes of which we cannot yet comprehend. So much battle between the righteous angels and the fallen angels (demons), and if God had revealed the 50th Truth much earlier, like by a year or 2, then Satan and his demons would have had more of God’s truth with which to use as weapons in their warfare against mankind.
#2. The withholding of the 50th Truth until later gives God’s Church greater humility through persecution, ridiculing, or whatever you wanna call it. Now, I’m not saying that people ridiculing are horrible because of this, because it’s understandable that somebody would reject God’s prophet due to the stated timing not being correct, but God’s withholding of the actual timing allows for greater humility of His prophet and of His Church, and humiility is a very great lesson that God teaches to us in various manners.
#3. God’s revelation of this timing would further separate His Church from the scattered Church, as well as from the rest of the World, by showing that God continues to give revelations of truth, even if something was stated by God’s prophet that was thought to be truth in God’s Church. One huge instance of this is when Mr. Armstrong had received revelation from God that Pentecost was not to be kept on a Monday but instead on a Sunday, as Monday was long believed to be the truth in Gods Church, and everything they did centered around what they believed to be the truth, until God showed them what the truth was. Did this prove to us that Mr. Armstrong was a false apostle ? Most all of the people whom believed in Mr. Weinland before the timing issue could grasp and understand God giving revelation of the truth about Pentecost to Mr. Armstrong, even after believing for decades and possibly even for centuries that Pentecost was to be kept on a Monday. So thus, if God would withhold His truth until His perfect timing to reveal it to His servants like Mr. Armstrong, then why would it be so far-fetched for God to do this with His prophet for the 50th Truth which had much to do with the timing for the return of Jesus Christ ?
We should be taking-up our issue with God if we cannot understand why He would withhold such important truth until after Mr. Weinland had already given the time-frame that he believed to be true ? God only judges us with what we have been given, much just like Moses, and Abraham, and all of the apostles and prophets throughout all of the ages of mankind, they were only judged based upon what was revealed to them through God, and they were given so much less than Peter and Paul and John were given, but yet God only judged them based upon what had been given to them, not based on what was withheld from them. It is God’s nature to not reveal everything at once, and it is us human-beings that perceive that it would have been better to reveal the timing for the 50th Truth much earlier thn it indeed was, but we don’t have God’s mind, we cannot know when God will reveal more truth to His Church. The withholding of the truths regarding timing is no different than withholding truths regarding doctrine. This further shows that God’s revelation is a progressive revelation and not an instant revelation for all things at once. Now, whether Mr. Weinland is true or not, we need to be praying to God and humbly, sincerely, and genuinely asking him to show you what the truth is, to give you greater understanding of what His real truth is and why he reveals His truths in the manner in which He does, because only through being humble about your desire for the truth will actually bring you to the truth. If you desire the truth more so that you can say you were right, or just to be saved, then that is not a good reason to desire the truth. We should want God’s truths because we are zealously on-fire for God’s ways of living life and to learn about God’s mind and how God works. No matter whether Mr. Weinland is correct or not, we need to be praying to God in this manner if we ever hope to come to the real truth regarding anything, and only God has the sword which can pierce the very deepest recesses of our minds, the great interpreter and discerner of our minds, and God knows more about our own thoughts and thinking than we do for ourselves, such mighty power that God says.
I can truly understand why people could look at this timing issue on the surface and automatically deem Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet, which is why I cannot be madd or angry at somebody whom doesn’t yet believe because God hasn’t given it to them yet (although the reason is probably because they haven’t sincerely prayed to God to receive what the truth really is). Sometimes I ponder over whether I am following the wrong thing or not, and I think about this quite a bit because it would be bad to be following the wrong thing, but then I think back to my calling, and how powerfull it felt for me, how everything was finally making sense to me for the very first time in my whole entire life, the purpose for mankind even existing, and the actual manners in which God has been using to bring this about over the course of 6,000 years. I also examine everything else which Mr. Weinland has been saying, and everything just makes so much sense to me, but this is just how I personally feel, and I understand that many of you don’t feel this way, and I can greatly respect that, because one that we can agree on is that God gives all of us choice, the choice of whether or not to believe with what he presents to us.
I even wrote to Mr. Weinland because one thing which concerned me was him saying that he would stop ministering and deem himself a false prophet if what he said did not come to pass. Even though I still believed, ths was a thorn in my mind for quite a while, but then I pondered on the fact that once again Mr. Weinland was sounding so incredibly confident because of what he believed to be true about Christ and Trumpets, but he had no idea that revelation changing that belief was coming, and one of the things this does for God is gives him a witness that his servants will do based only on what they have been given, and I believe that this is precisely what Mr. Weinland did, because he didn’t know that there was further revelation coming, and so he very boldly stated a time-frame for April 17th, 2008 as the blowing of the 1st Trumpet, but little did he realize that God was going to be giving very powerfull revelation regarding the timing for the return of Jesus Christ, and unfortauntely for Mr. Weinland’s reputation, that did indeed call for him changing what he had originally stated regarding the original time-frame, much just like God’s revelation to Mr. Armstrong called for the changing of the doctrine from keeping Pentecost on a Monday to a Sunday. We must judge God’s servants upon what has or had been given to them and what has or had not been given to them. There is so much purpose that God had in not revealing the 50th Truth until later, and if we have an issue with that, we need to be taking it up with God, because if we are wrong about declaring Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet (meaning if Mr. Weinland is indeed real, true, and correct), then we need to seek greater understanding from the only being that can give it to us, and that one being is God, it is not Mr. Weinland’s truth, it is God’s truth. The one thing which I will firmly stick to is that I will have been wrong if nothing yet happens by 2011, because that is the absolutely latest which the 2nd Trumpet could be blown for there to be enough time for the future events to come into fruition.
What I said here in this posting is not to say that I am right and everybody else is wrong, but I’m merely just trying to impart the reasoning behind why we shouldn’t yet declare Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet, because we might be going against the very manner in which God is working. Maybe God didn’t withhold the 50th Truth back and Mr. Weinland is just a liar and a deceiver and a false prophet, but then I have to discount everything else that he has said which does seem to be of the truth upon examining the Bible. Just think about this though, because had the 2nd Trumpet blown during Mr. Weinland’s 1st time-frame, then there would not be much ridicule or mocking of him, but the danger would be that then he and God’s Church might have gotten bragfull and say that they were right all along, and plus, God could also have been showing to His Church and to the World that even God’s prophet can speak something that wasn’t of the full power of God’s truth simply because God had not yet revealed the full truth. This is a very very trying and testing issue, and I wish that this didn’t happen because it feels like it’s causing so much hardship, but I do believe that God has His reasons and His purposes for doing anything and everything that He does, and I pray that we be given further understanding as to the mysteries of how it is that God is working things out. I mean, I didn’t hear many on-the-fencers talking about how Mr. Armstrong changed something in God’s Church due to revelation of truth from God, but only because it’s happening with timing that we all wanted to see come to pass are we not believing Mr. Weinland, and in a sense we are being a little selfish because we are then wanting to see the timing coming to pass for the wrong reasons. If it’s in God’s purpose for the timing to be revealed at a specific moment in time, then this is God’s doing, and sometimes we cannot understand why God is doing things the way that he should be doing them. People feel that God should not have withheld the truth about the Sunday Pentecost until 1974, why did God not reveal this truth so very long ago while they were not keeping the right day ? It’s all in God’s perfect timing when He chooses to reveal things, and as long as God’s people are showing faith in everything that they have been given thus so far, that is what matters to God. God is not concerned with whether or not we are following what He has not yet given to us. Mr. Weinland gave his original time-frame based upon what God’s Church had believed for a very long time, and part of the timing for the revelation of the 50th Truth for June 2008 was to show that His Church is keeping their faith in what they believed to be the truth until God reveals the real truth to them. I’ve heard many people saying that even if the 2nd Trumpet blows with nuclear detonations in port cities, that Mr. Weinland is sitll a false prophet because of the timing issue, and I know that some of you will feel that same way also, but we must be humble before God and pray to him for His great mercy to show you the truth because you want to know His ways, you want to live his way of life.
Whether or not Mr. Weinland is right or not, I am still so very incredibly excited in my life to have come to know God’s purpose and plan for mankind, why we are here, the reasons why he created us as physical human-beings with a carnal nature about ourselves, and why there was a rebellion in the Angelic-Realm, and why are there dinosaur fossills of hundreds of millions of years if mankind was only here for 6,000 years. Everything that I have been learning is jut so very powerfull to me and it’s leaving me so very excited about everything. My posting on here isn’t to prove to you what is correct or to prove to you that Mr. Weinland is not a false prophet, as I understand that I cannot do those things at all whatsoever, but I am trying to impart what we should be examining, and not just looking at the very surface of the timing issue. We should be examining why the timing did not occur, why did God withhold that timing, and see the history of how God has worked in His Church, because he did the same thing with Mr. Armstrong regarding revelation of truth as He did with Mr. Weinland. We should very easily be able to state that Mr. Armstrong was a false apostle if what he stated about various doctrine was not of the truth (which we wouldn’t even have known was not of the truth until God revealed the real truth), but the truth is that God has given revelation throughout the history of God’s Church, most powerfully in the beginning of God’s Church and in the Philadelphia and Laodicea eras. The issue we have is that God did not reveal the 50th Truth sooner than we perceive would have been right, once again mankind saying that he knows better than God. Now, this is not a personal attack on individuals, but this is just showing how mankind tends to think when things don’t seem right in their own minds, when it’s all about God’s mind and His purpose and timing in and for all things.
By the way, as I’ve been writing this today, there has been a major California Earth-Quake sequence that began with a 6.5 magnitude earth-quake, and has followed a 7.2 sequence near the Solomon Islands on 1/3/2010, and a 5.9 sequence in Baja California at the Volcano down there on 12/30/2009. All 3 of these sequences have yielded many strong after-shocks, some being much worse than the previous after-shock, making some of them fore-shocks, so could something much bigger be coming ? I don’t want to talk more about this now though because I will be discussing the 7 Thunders in another posting onto The Weinland Witnes, but I want the comments to this here particular posting to be about the issue of Mr. Weinland’s timing and what people are thinking regarding this matter, especially after what I have typed above.
I want everybody reading this to know that I love all of you, and even when sometimes that might be difficult, I know that God indeed desires for all of us to love each and every other human-being that has ever lived and died upon this Earth, even if we greatly disagree with each other, we are all bonded together by the love for our almighty Creator, our Eternal God, Yahweh Elohim (in the Hebrew language). We are all bonded together by the persuit of truth, but how we go about that persuit of truth, and whether or not we are asking God for His help in this endeavor, will make all of the difference in the World in whether or not He gives each of us His truth.
Aaron Robinson
Comments are weclome, but the previous rules still apply, meaning that we will not tolerate vile language against Mr. Weinland for any reason, whether you feel that he is wrong or not, because this is not a forum for vile hatred against anybody. If you already feel that you have the truth and nothing else could ever possibly be right, such as like if you read Mr. Weinland’s books and didn’t believe him from that point on and never will, then this is not the forum for you, as there are hundreds of web-sites out there that are designed for those kinds of postings. We do welcome healthy and constructive debate and examining, but it MUST be respectfull, because otherwise your posting might be disapproved or you might be banned all-together. Let us respectfully share our thoughts.
Aaron Robinson
Aaron,
I am one of those who grew up under Armstrong, one of the now unbelievers, and at times a “mocker.” But I’m not commenting here to mock. I simply want to ask a question that I’d like you to consider quite seriously and answer succinctly: What unambiguous event or events would need to come to pass for you to conclude beyond any reasonable doubt that Weinland *is* a false prophet? Is there anything short of May 27, 2012 arriving without Jesus that would convince you? Would even that convince you if Weinland says the timing has changed again? A followup question would be: if you can conceive of such disproving events and they come to pass, will you boldly declare Weinland a false prophet here, as Citizen X did?
I have not visited here for over a year but today I stopped in and read this post.
I am in complete agreement with what is written.
So Thankful.
Hi Aaron
I found that your introductory post on ‘God’s Timing vs Mr Weinland’s Timing’ fairly closely follows my own current thinking about Ronald Weinland.
Firstly, I would like to say that seldom have I listened to a preacher who so clearly explains Scripture, including God’s salvation plan, and how it is all linked in with God’s Holy Days (ie. The 7th day Sabbath, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles).
I have listened to many of his sermons and to my mind they are Godly sermons, coming from a sound mind and without any twisting or distorting of Scripture that I can detect. In my spirit, what he says ‘feels right’.
In short, I have been getting the impression that I am listening to someone who is indeed speaking for God.
Having once concluded he was false, on the basis that his timing proved to be wrong, I am now thinking as you are that perhaps there is a bigger picture here. Namely, that God did not give him everything at once. As more ‘revelation’ has come to him, Mr Weinland has been able to put more pieces of the jigsaw together.
It is easy to judge him as a liar or deceiver, but I believe if I had been in his shoes and my original timeline had failed, but had been replaced by something as significant as the ‘50th truth’, and I was convinced God had given it to me, I would have behaved the same as Mr Weinland.
……………………………………………………………………………….
So, getting onto the subject of ‘God’s Timing vs Mr Weinland’s Timing’, as I said in a previous post, it is the SEQUENCE in which he has come up with the dates and timelines that I find extremely thought provoking.
It might be worth visitors to this forum carefully considering the ORDER in which his prophecies have unfolded:
1. Ron Weinland writes a book that ‘God tells him’ is to be called ‘2008 God’s Final Witness’, and reveals to him that he is one of the two end time witnesses. Notice the date for the book is to be 2008; not 2007 or 2009 or 2010, but 2008.
2. Sometime prior to 2008 Ron Weinland’s sermons were very much focused on two particular time spans.
FIRSTLY, the timespan of 280 DAYS (40 Sabbaths) following Joseph Tkach’s sermon that splintered Herbert W. Armstrong’s Worldwide Church of God (when Tkach stated amongst other things that God’s Festivals no longer needed to be kept) and was therefore (according to Weinland) the ‘man of sin’ of 2Thess2 vs 3,4. Apparently, Tkach died in judgement exactly 280 DAYS to the hour after that sermon. RON WEINLAND THEN DECLARES THAT THE NUMBER 280 (40 SABBATHS) IS HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT AND REPRESENTS GOD’S JUDGEMENT.
SECONDLY, the timespan of 1335 DAYS stated in Daniel 12 vs 12. According to Mr Weinland, this was the timespan prior to the return of Christ, when the 144,000 firstfruits of God were to be sealed ready for the first resurrection. The 1290 and 1260 days of Daniel 12 were also important, but the commencing timespan for the events to start was 1335.
3. Based on what God had given him to that point, ie. that the countdown WAS TO START FROM 2008, and also assuming that Christ would return on God’s Festival of Trumpets (which virtually everyone who takes an interest in God’s Festivals believed), it stood to reason to him that the 1335 day countdown would start early 2008 (with Christ returning on Trumpets 2011). This was the basis for his first timeline.
4. As time went by and with nothing particular happening, God apparently told him ‘Yes, it was all to commence in 2008, but that the Festival of Trumpets was not the date for Christ’s RETURN but the date of the ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE COUNTDOWN to Christ’s return.
So, the 2008 Festival of Trumpets ANNOUNCED the 1335 DAY countdown WHICH THEN COMES EXACTLY TO GOD’S FESTIVAL OF PENTECOST 2012.
PENTECOST MAKES TOTAL SENSE because that is the Festival associated with the firstfruits (ie. the 144,000 who will be glorified and will rule and reign with Christ during the Millennium).
5. God also ‘showed him’ that working back from ‘Trumpets’ of 2008 to Satan’s festival of Christmas 2007 is EXACTLY 280 DAYS, because ‘Trumpets’ was also the announcement of the coming judgement of Satan when he will be taken out of the way during the Millennial reign.
6. NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THESE TIMESPANS OF 280 AND 1335 ONLY COINCIDE USING THE YEAR 2008 BECAUSE THE DATES OF GOD’S FESTIVALS MOVE AROUND FROM YEAR TO YEAR.
7. Since then, ‘further revelations’ have been given to him which are also linked in with 280 DAYS.
From Dec 14 2008 (derived from Daniel’s 1260 days) when the ‘Tribulation began’ to the Festival of Trumpets 2009 is 280 DAYS.
From Trumpets 2009 to Pentecost 2012 is equivalent to ‘time,times and half a time’, if a ‘time’ is 280 DAYS. The end times expression ‘time, times and half a time’ is twice used in Scripture (Rev 12:14 and Daniel 7:25).
NOTE AGAIN THAT ALL THESE TIMESPANS WHICH LINK IN WITH END TIME SCRIPTURES ONLY FALL INTO PLACE USING THE KEY YEAR OF 2008.
The point I am making is the SEQUENCE or ORDER the dates and revelations have come to Ronald Weinland. The key timespans of 280 and 1335 came FIRST from Mr Weinland before he had any complete knowledge of how these timespans would correctly fit in with God’s Festivals.
THEN it is almost like God gave him the last piece of the jigsaw and showed him how those timespans fitted in perfectly with His Festivals using the KEY YEAR OF 2008. These numerical fits only occur so exactly when using 2008 as the key.
FOR ME, THE FACT THAT HE CAME UP WITH THE SECOND TIMELINE MAKES IT MORE, NOT LESS, LIKELY THAT HE COULD BE GENUINE.
Coincidence ? Of course this is possible – but at what odds ?
A Satanic deception? – I doubt that the devil is that clever as to use a numerical fit so closely linked with GOD’S WORD. But I also feel in my spirit that, so far, Godly words are coming from Mr Weinland’s mouth, words that continually exalt God. I am still looking, but as yet have seen no tell tale sign that the arch-deceiver Satan is involved in Mr Weinland’s preaching.
Hey there IronWoldf, I really do very much appreciate your question, which is aways welcoming just as so long as it is respectfull like you showed me, and nobody has to be in agreement with me to ask me something or to comment, just as so long as it is done in a respectfull manner. Your question is a very fair question, and I will answer by saying that should Mr. Weinland change the time-frame once yet again, then he most definitelly would be a false prophet, because you cannot have 2 revelations that change the time-frame twice, that can only happen once, which would ahev been much just like if Mr. Armstrong would have changed Pentecost back to Monday after having changed it to Sunday, or maybe changing it to like Saturday or something like that, he would have been a false apostle for having received revelation from God concerning the true day to be keeping Pentecost but then getting revelation again to change it again, I just don’t believe that God would change something to just be changing it again later. I would like to note though that God didn’t change the time-line for the events, the time-line was always what is now currently is, it’s just that God had not yet revealed the truth of that timing until after Mr. Weinland had already given his first time-frame, which also means that Mr. Weinland thought that this original timing came from God but I see it as having been Mr. Weinland’s own understanding, even though he probably thought that it was from God because of what he believed to be true about Jesus Christ returning on the Feast Of Trumpets, but he could not have known the true timing until God first revealed the timing for the return of Jesus Christ being on Pentecost, which did indeed cause Mr. Weinland to have to boldly change his original time-frame, which I’m sure was not an easy thing to do since so very many would then instantaneously declare him to be a false prophet without even thinking anything more regarding is.
So thus, if Mr. Weinland were to further change the time-line to something else, I would have to deem him to be a false prophet because neither God’s prophets nor God’s servants wouldn’t receive revelation from God twice regarding the very same exact issue, such as the timing for something very specific. Now, but also, should the 2nd Trumpet not blow by 2011, then I would already grow very weary about it, but it would depend upon how deep into 2011 it would be going, because Mr. Weinland even said that the next 6 Trumpets could begin blowing in 2011, but it would probably have to be before the Spring of 2011, so that is my deadline, whereby if he 2nd Trumpet has still not blown by then, then I will have to humbly pray before God and pray that he show us why everything else about Mr. Weinland makes sense but the timing never occured. I just personally don’t think that 2011 will come without having anything like this occur, but if it doesn’t, I will say that I will have been wrong about Mr. Weinland, and I won’t even have to wait until Pentecost 2012 because we should be seeing nuclear detonations by the Spring of 2011 at the very very latest, but I personally believe that we will be seeing the manifestation of the 2nd Trumpet blast sometime during this year of 2010, and here is why:
You hear the news and other people constantly saying how we are at the beginning of the new decade, and the news even showed how the Dow Jones Industrial Average Index (DJIA) was down over 9% over this decade, but the truth of the matter is that we are in the final year for this decade, which makes things very intriguing for me because 9/11/2001 occured during the first year of this decade (and of the century and of the millenium), and now 2010 is the final year of this decade. The events of 9/11 were so very symbolic, very much prophetic, symbolizing the future destruction of the economy through the destruction of the 7 World Trade Center buildings, and also symbolizing the future destruction of the United States Of America as a independent sovereign nation through the striking of the Pentagon (the very heart and core of the defense for the United States). This symbolizing event on 9/11 occured during the very first year of this decade, and now we are in the very last year of this decade, so thus, if something were to occur in 2010 that would be nuclear detonations for the 2nd Trumpet, how awesome of a signal would this be that we had the foreshadowing of this future destruction on 9/11 in the first year of the decade, and the actual event which 9/11 was symbolizing for the future in the last year of the decade ? I didn’t even think about this timing of this until like the past month or so, but wow, what awesome timing this would be if this did indeed occur in this manner.
I know that many people whom believe Mr. Weinland will defend him no matter what else happens or doesn’t happen, even if the time-line would be changing once yet again, but I’m more humbler than that, I would rather admit that I was wrong rather than to be living a lie out of fear of being wrong.
Aaron Robinson
weinland observer?
It would seem to me that another indicator to watch would be the Sixth Thunder as described by Ron Weinland in his book.
That is, the Sixth Thunder being the revelation that he is the spokesman of Gods’ two end-time witnesses.
Ron says that “radio and television interviews will become more the norm as curiosity, news, controversy, and fear increase in proportion to the growing intensity of these thunders”.
So, whether Ron becomes recognized and well known on a very high level through radio, television, etc., or not, would be something to watch, way ahead and well before the fullfillment of some of the things that Ron has prophesied.
Aaron.
This is scripture that I believe gives revelation.
Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
This is referring to the great destruction on the Earth in the time we now live as we approach the Return of Jesus.
Remember, Abraham interceded for Sodom and Gomorrah and God did postpone the destruction. But it did happen.
Also, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo are a picture of God’s protection of his chosen.
Hi there CosmoPot, just don’t forget that the 2nd, 3rd, and/or 4th Trumpets could happen before there are many more interviews. Probably the very biggest rumbling from right now will be after the blowing of the 5th Trumpet, because that is after the demise of the United States Of America, and a very strong union of 10 nations for the United States Of Europe rises to power. There are much less interviews right now because most of them already believe that Mr. Weinland is a false prophet because of the timing issue, and he has not been invited back to do subsequent interviews, but they will begin occuring once yet again after the blowing of the 2nd & 3rd Trumpets with nuclear detonations in port cities and then in land cities, respectively.
Aaron Robinson
Well said Aaron,
Funnily enough I too had not been back to this site for about 6 months, then suddenly felt compelled to visit today, and saw your comments.
Very inspiring….I cannot wait for more folk to be called to Gods awesome truth!
Taryn
NEW POST ON RONALD WEINLAND WEBSITE
Ronald Weinland – Author of “The Prophesied End-Time” & “2008 – God’s Final Witness”
WOMEN & “The CURSE”
January 15, 2010
The last posting on this site addressed God’s current revelation to the Church about His “Elijah to come” at this end-time. As was stated, that commission has been given to me to fulfill in its completeness and not as a “type,” which was partially fulfilled in John the Baptist and in Herbert W. Armstrong. God is now going to bring both rolls of these previous “types” into a complete and final fulfillment that ushers in the second coming of His Son as the Messiah (the Christ-the ordained ruler) over all mankind.
This posting cannot cover all of the exciting revelation that God is giving concerning what His purpose is and what is meant by the expression of “restoring all things” in the commission of the end-time Elijah. It is about a “work” that God is doing in and through His human instruments, primarily through His Church.
In order to receive a far greater understanding of the inspiration, plain truth, and excitement of what God is now revealing, I am encouraging every one of you (if you have not already done so) to listen to some of this new truth as it is covered far more thoroughly in the sermon on Dec. 26, 2009, entitled, “Restoring All Things,” and in the current sermon series entitled, “Ordinations & Baptisms.”
FINDING FAULT:
The numerous groups that have formed from the scattering that took place during the apostasy of the Worldwide Church of God in December, 1994, are busy responding to what God is currently revealing to the Church through me as His end-time Elijah. They are quick to find fault in order to belittle and ridicule what God is now revealing.
Some are much like the Pharisees who were always so quick and eager to find fault in anything Christ taught. They seethed at the notion that God would work or say such things through a man like Jesus. Yet in actuality, they were finding fault with the very Son of God, their very Passover Lamb.
It is no different today. Much of the leadership and membership in such organizations are not able to contain themselves with glee over what they think they now see as far clearer proof that I could not be of God; yet I am (of God)!
The very thing they fight against and refuse to embrace is the very truth that could help them escape what is coming. Those who refuse to repent and listen to what God is telling them will not be blessed to see the “promised land” that has been prophesied to come for so long now. The millennium is almost here, and only a small percentage will be allowed to enter. Most will have to wait until a future time when they will be “spiritually awakened” after they are physically resurrected in the final hundred years of mankind.
As much as the Pharisees hated the thought of Christ being the Messiah, most of those from the Church that have been scattered loathe the thought that I could possibly be the “Elijah to come,” let alone be one of the two end-time prophets and witnesses of God. Yet it is true. It is just a reality that so many do not yet accept. Human pride is such a shameful thing. As with the Pharisees, who knew there were words of truth in what Jesus Christ was saying, but refused to listen because he was threatening their authority and their belief that they were the true custodians of the word of God, there are many scattered groups and their leaders who are of this same deceived attitude and spirit today.
A CURSE ON WOMEN:
As talked about in recent sermons, which I referred to earlier, one of the first things to be revealed that God is now beginning to address to His Church is the need to restore a far better and more correct mindset toward the role of women in society, especially within the Church and the family. From the beginning, Satan led the first two humans into sin in his effort to begin his work of seeking to destroy God’s plan for His Family—Elohim—and did so by striking out at the first human family.
Satan’s success in leading these two people to sin (due to the selfishness and pride of human nature) led to consequences. It resulted in that which all sin leads, the opposite of being blessed for obedience, but instead reaping curses for disobedience. Curses are the result of not being blessed and given favor by God. It is a matter of natural physical consequences that God has imposed upon nature when His sustaining power of preservation and favor is removed.
Sin infects the mind and alters how a person thinks. It distorts the capacity for sound and practical thinking as it leads to perverted and distorted reasoning that is further fueled by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. When Adam and Eve sinned, the mind of man began to turn farther away from sound mindedness that can only come from God. Only God can reveal the way to right thinking and right relationships among people, and that is especially true in the context of this posting of how men think toward women. Even in reading this, many men will “think” that their thinking is right toward women, and yet it is not, and much must yet be changed!
In marriage, the right relationship between a husband and wife should be the most exciting and most rewarding relationship in life. However, this “got off on a wrong foot” from the very beginning.
Ever since man chose the way of sin (as all have, except Jesus Christ), men have not rightly respected women, not even their own wives (when married), and have instead ruled “over” women in a wrong manner that is authoritarian, controlling and demeaning (looking down as being lesser). This is what constitutes a large part of the curse upon women that has existed from the beginning. Over the centuries, even within the Church, that curse has only partially been lifted to the degree that individuals have repented of mistreatment of others and have truly sought to “change” self and become more God-like in character and thinking (in harmony with the truths and laws of God). But women have still been suppressed by being morally mistreated, demeaned, and held to an inferior state by men. And most sad of all, this has been perpetuated by husbands because of male ego, lust and pride.
God is now starting the greater process (which only partially started in the Church over the centuries) of restoring the dignity and honor that He intended women should have from the beginning. This is part of the “healing” process that is prophesied to fill the earth in the Millennium, as Satan and his demons are removed from the presence of mankind, and as Jesus Christ receives rule of all the earth. This healing process is now beginning to be restored in God’s Church as we accelerate toward that new age for all mankind. In this context, this is the greater fulfillment of the prophecy that states, “And those from among you shall build the old waste places and you shall raise up the foundations of many generations, and you shall be called, ‘The repairer of the breach, the restorer of paths to dwell in’” (Is. 58:12).
Of even greater inspiration is the literal translation from Hebrew that states, “And those from among you shall build from the destruction caused of old [ancient times] and you shall raise up the foundations of many generations, and you shall be called ‘The repairer of the break, the restorer [Heb. – “to set again,” “to reestablish”] of paths to dwell in.’”
Those who will be part of this work are blessed to help restore the God intended role and purpose of both man and woman in marriage and in society. When God’s government, love, and true purpose are more firmly reestablished in the foundation of marriage, the structure of the family will become far stronger than ever experienced in the previous 6,000 years. The human family will be given a giant boost that more readily leads into the very Family of God—Elohim.
The liberation of all races and nationalities is rapidly approaching, and at the top of that list is the true liberation of women from the demeaning state in which they have been “ruled over.” This also produces a liberation for man that yields a more fulfilling and rewarding life, a greater unity and oneness with God, and the greater experience of what true masculinity was intended to be from the beginning.
ORDINATION OF WOMEN:
It is in the midst of this restoration that is coming from God, through His Church to this world, that God has now revealed that women can be ordained to ministerial service in His Church. As this latest sermon series (”Ordinations and Baptisms”) is giving the soundness and balance of how this will exist in His Church, there are distinctions of service that will be different between men and women. Such distinctions of service will not exist because of the lesser ability, insight, understanding, or stature of women. It is because of the differences God established that would constitute the qualities that are genuine and true in all that reflects a unique beauty in the femininity of women, just as there is service that is only intended for men that God has created which constitutes right qualities of true masculinity.
True masculinity and true femininity can only be understood by how God defines each. Such truth and spiritual sound minded understanding can only come from God through the power of His spirit working in us.
God has revealed that the role of preaching in the environment of the formal Sabbath service is that of a masculine role, as God has defined it to be. That is not a feminine role, and if women did speak in a formal Sabbath environment, it would make a woman appear to have characteristics of masculinity that are not edifying or natural (as God created it to be).
God has revealed that women are to be ordained into ministerial service as elders. There is to be no distinction within the Church for the term “elder” (spiritual service) that would differentiate between a man or woman. Even for the office of a prophet, the term is simply “prophet” without a distinction of gender.
Within the Church, a woman would not be ordained to an apostle, evangelist or pastor because of many of those duties that God has set aside as masculine in nature. A woman can be ordained to that of a prophet or elder (sr. elder, elder, or associate elder).
The understanding God is currently giving concerning the removal of a curse upon women (and men) from the beginning is to begin the fulfillment of the prophesied role (work) of the “Elijah to come.” That “work” is about final preparations God is making for the return of His Son, Jesus Christ.
As John the Baptist baptized thousands into a baptism of repentance in preparation for the first coming of Jesus Christ, God’s Church is now preparing for massive numbers of baptisms into the Body of Christ in preparation for the second coming of Jesus Christ. Women will play as crucial a role in this as men will. Both men and women who are ordained may lay hands upon a person after baptism for the purpose of the impregnation of God’s spirit. Such a role is neither masculine nor feminine, but of God through the power of His spirit.
As Paul wrote in Galatians 3:27 & 28, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” The Family of God, including the begotten Family, is not a matter of gender. And so in ordination and the laying on of hands that God has chosen for His ministry to perform for the impregnation of His spirit for all who are baptized, this process in no manner reflects male or female in distinction, but the power of God to beget.
I respectfully have a question or two regarding things revealed to Ron Weinland.
What if some of the things that you say were revealed to Ron Weinland recently were revealed to other people years ago?
For example. What if the idea that Jesus is to return on Pentecost was revealed to Harold Smith of the CFGNW previous to 2004 (and earlier)?
See this document for evidence:
http://cgfnw.org/NetServices/Docs/EndtimeTimeLine.pdf
(This is just one document. You would have to listen to his messages to get more. Or perhaps contact him and ask him about it.)
It was not just something that Harold Smith has taught for years, but others as well. It was taught in my own church (not affiliated with the CGFNW) around the same time, and some left because of it. It was also spoken about (but not taught) as far back as 2002 in the Belleville COG.
I ask because you say this:
“… it wasn’t until after Mr. Weinland had already given his original time-frame (through what he had thought to be the truth in God’s Church for decades) that God revealed that Jesus Christ would be returning on Pentecost”
How does this information I have given you affect your view of your own statement?
You raised a very very good question, and I thank you for asking your question in a very respectfull manner. Mr. Weinland gave instances of other pastors having said some of the same things that he has. Mr. Weinland gave the instance of one of the scattered “Church Of God” churches had stated that Mr. Joseph W. Tkach was the Man Of Sin, which is something that Mr. Weinland revealed to God’s Church with the full truth of it. The church that claimed to have revealed about the Man Of Sin did it well before Mr. Tkach had die, for when he then did indeed die, then this person had to change his theory to the Man Of Sin being Mr. Tkach’s son. Thus, this is one instance of somebody having the truth of something, but lacking the spirit of that truth, because the deeper spiritual meaning behind the truth of Mr. Tkach being the Man Of Sin and the subsequent revealing of the Man Of Sin and how that revealing too place. There are many instances where somebody might claim to have the truth, but they don’t have the spirit of the truth behind it. Now, I did look at this chart that you had posted a link to, and they on’t even seem sue about the Pentecost thing, as there is a question-mark next to it. The other difference is that this is very very generalized because it is not based upon anything that they are seeing as being imminent. Mr. Weinland, on the other hand, has very boldly stated that it will be on the day of Pentecost in the year of 2012 when the 7th Trumpet will be blown when Jesus Christ will be returning to this Earth. That church does have much of the truth because it is a church that splintered-off from the Worldwide Church Of God, but they no longer have the spirit behind that truth if God is not working with those particular churches. So thus, many different churches could claim the same truth, but only the church that has the truth which has the spirit behind it is where God is working, and the other churches claimed tha same truth(s) will not fully and deeply understand the purpose and meaning behind the truth(s).
Aaron Robinson
muzixsoulworldly,
You say,
“should Mr. Weinland change the time-frame once yet again, then he most definitelly would be a false prophet, because you cannot have 2 revelations that change the time-frame twice”
I would ask you if that definition also applies to Herbert W Armstrong?
———-
HWA first predicted Jesus’ return in September 1936 – because 2520 years from the siege of Jerusalem (which he dates at 585 BC) is 1936. He claimed understanding of this timing was absolutely key to understanding the Bible.
That came and went.
After a series of predictions that Mussolini was the leader of the Beast and would fight the returning Christ, we come to 1953.
In 1953, it was taught that God allotted one 19-year time cycle from the first “World Tomorrow” radio broadcast in January 1934 until January 1953 so that the church could warn the world, and Jesus had not returned, so that meant God had allotted a second, and very final 19-year time cycle for preaching and warning, and Jesus would begin His return in January 1972.
At that time, it was taught that Jesus would return by 1982 – because 2520 years from from the destruction of Babylon (which he dates at 539 BC) is 1982. Understanding this was supposed to be key.
Now, you might wonder why we started by looking at a 10 year period from 1972 to 1982. Jesus only had to return BY 1982, not IN 1982. They taught a 10 year period of increasing. The tribulation was supposed to start in 1972 and most likely end in 1975.
The book “1975 In Prophecy” was written to help people understand the imminent return of Christ. Herbert Armstrong staked his reputation on the surety of the timing.
1972 came and went. 1982 came and went.
All of this is in print for you to read on your own. It’s no secret. And they were billed as “true”, “sure”, “message from God”, “on authority of God Almighty” … by a man that even Ron Weinland says was an Elijah [prophet].
I wonder, how do you respond to this?
I also have a general question to whomever would care to respond.
First, some background so you might better understand my question that I will ask in a bit:
We can clearly see that Herbert W Armstrong made many claims of being this or that fulfillment of prophecy, and also claimed to receive truth from God, and also appeared to know about prophetic fulfillment.
Yet he came and went, as did all of his dates.
Now we have Ron Weinland. In every claim he is similar to Herbert w Armstrong. (I’m not implying anything negative about that. I’m simply stating a fact that the similarities are uncanny.)
IF – and I say that out of respect to you and your readers – IF 2012 comes and goes and there is no return, it was stated plainly that Ron Weinland is a false prophet. No ifs, ands, or third timeline changes.
Another will come along. Since William Miller’s Great Disappointment in 1843, another has always come along. The SDA church follows Ellen G. White. The Jehovah’s Witnesses follow C. T. Russell and the Watchtower Society. The Worldwide Church of God followed HWA. And the Philadelphia Church of God follows Gerald Flurry. There will always be another and another.
That said, here’s my question…
What do you say to the next guy who comes along, saying just what Ron Weinland now says and claiming what Ron Weinland now claims? How will you prove him right or wrong? Do you wait them all out?
That’s a great question, xHWA; I’ve been wondering what Biblical support is found for a prophet being allowed to change his prophecy once, but not twice?
This is a very serious issue, so I would hope one would not try to use their own wisdom/discernment when it comes to false prophets.
Urrrrggghhhh, I had just finished typing my response, and then I lost it all cuz I forgot to my text down before I had to reboot my laptop computer. But anyhowm you do raise a very intriguing question. The first thing that I want to mention is that Mr. Armstrong was an apostle, but he was in no form a prophet. Now, he may have stated some things that he believed would happen during his life-time because of how the World would plunged into World War II, and then the Korean War, and the Cuban Missile Crisis, and then Vietnam War. The Bible does say that we are to be watching and ready and that for those whom don’t, it will come upon them like a thief in the night, but that for those whom are watching and ready, it will not coming upon them like a thief in the night.
God’s apostle Mr. Armstrong along with God’s Church had very long believed that the day of Pentecost was to be kept on a Monday, and God allowed for them to believe this because revelation regarding this truth was coming later-on. God then gave revelation to His apostle Mr. Armstrong that the day of Pentecost was to be kept on a Sunday, and Monday and some dd leave the Church over this, but does this make Mr. Armstrong a false apostle because doctrine had to be changed in order to match the truths which God was revealing to them ? Some people don’t believe that God would allow for those things to be changed, but they don’t understand the component regarding God’s Church not being stagnated, and growing in truth and in spirit, and that this is accomplished through revelation from God to His servants the apostles and prophets and then on to God’s Church. Well, God’s Church wasn’t changing their doctrines, then were just fine-tuning their doctrines because God had revealed to them that there were things that needed to be changed in order to be of the full and total truth of God. The Church wasn’t changing the truth, it’s just that they didn’t have the full truth of some certain various things until God gave revelation regarding those things. If God’s Church had ALL of God’s truths already, then there would be no need at all whatsoever for any further revelation regarding anything, and then God’s Church would not be spiritually growing, a growing which would be of growing in truth and in spirit.
John’s 7 letters to those 7 Churches in Asia had a dual-meaning to them through the concept of church-eras. Some of those churches were to be spiritually dead, one to be of the restoring and keeping of the truths, and another one to be one of lukewarmness, complacency, and lethargicness. In order for those churches to have become that way in the very first place, the truth would have had to been lost somewhere along the course of time, which would mean that God’s Church didn’t always have the truths of God, but had to be taught through apostles (namely Mr. Armstrong & Mr. Weinland) that His Church was not following the truth, sometimes because the truth was lost, but also sometimes because the truth was just simply never even revealed before.
Now, Mr. Armstrong was stating at various times that he felt and believed that the return of Jesus Christ was going to be occuring rather soon, but I don’t think that he had ever stated those things as being a prophecy, and he wasn’t even a prophet anyhow, so anything concerning prophetic events that he would predict to come to pass would be merely speculation and not prophecying itself and not revelation from God. He might have thought that he was getting understanding from God because of the 2 global wars being experienced, and plus, he was trying to give a sense of urgency as we are always supposed to have because it is of the utmost urgency and importance that we repent NOW, and change NOW, instead of believing that he return of Jesus Christ and the coming of God’s Kingdom was like many decades off into the future and so thus would become lethargic and complacent, which will cause lukewarmness and we will no longer have that intense glowing flame of being zealously on-fire for God’s ways of living our lives. Mr. Armstrong wouldn’t even be able to state prophecy anyhow cuz he wasn’t even a prophet and he never even proclaimed himself to be a prophet. The things that Mr. Armstrong believed would be occuring relating to prophetic events were merely speculation, whether he realized it was speculation or not. God was not revealing the understand of those things back at that time, but we are told to be ready and watching, because for those of whom are not ready and watching, it willd come upon them like a thief int he night, but for those of whom are indeed ready and watching, it will NOT come upon then like a thief in the night. The Bible tells us that we are not to be soon shaken in mind and that we are to act everyday as if the day of Christ is at hand, as if the very return of Jesus Christ is already at hand, which is why Mr. Armstrong always had an attitude of urgency that the return of Christ was always imminent, because we are to think in that manner anyhow according to the Scriptures.
Aaron Robinson
You do raise a very good question because I have wanted to address something that you said which is what angel and some others have also been saying. You said that there will always be another and another person claiming to be a prophet and claiming to have understanding of prophecy. If they will always be wrong, then that means that we will have no more prophets at all whatsoever before Jesus Christ returns to this Earth with God’s Kingdom. We must not ever let the many many false prophets out there cause us to believe or colour our perception that there will always be false prophets and none of them will come with the truth of their prophecies coming to pass. Even if Mr. Weinland would indeed be a false prophet, we STILL must never be thinking that it will always be this way just because thousands have come and gone with their prophecies not coming to pass. That is a very dangerous mind-set to have because that is one of complacency whereby you feel and believe that all prophets will be false prophets because you said that there will ALWAYS be another and another, which seems to be implying that the real prophets will just never ever come.
As for waiting them all out, that is not what I’m doing here. I really truly believe that Mr. Weinland is God’s prophet for this End-Time period, but however, if the 2nd Trumpet of nuclear detonations is not blown by the beginning of the year of 2011, then I will have to deem Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet. I personally feel that the 2nd Trumpet will be coming much much sooner than that though because there has to be like 6 months or so for the United States Of America to have fully and totally collapsed on down to its very demise, and then there has to be “a day, a month, and a year” from between the timing of the 5th Trumpet of the United States Of Europe arising as a super-power in the World, to China, Russia, and the Asian powers arising as yet another super-power and doing what they do in the World. So thus, if the 2nd Trumpet blast was blown during the Summer of the year of 2010, then the United States Of America will have totally collapsed as an independent sovereign nation by the Winter of 2010 – 2011. Then, the 6th Trumpet blast would be blowing by the Winter of 2011-2012, leaving only a few months remaining until the blowing of the final 7th Trumpet blast on the very day of Jesus Christ’s return to this Earth.
So thus, I don’t believe that the 2nd Trumpet blast would be occuring much past the Summer 2010, but it could indeed work-out to occur as late as the beginning of 2011, but however, we are in the middle of 2 separate yet together Triple-Eclipse sequences, bth of which are very uch incredibly rare. Now, even though God’s servants nor God’s Church has talked about those eclipses, they still seem like a very huge sign, because first we have the incredibly rare sequence of there being Total Solar Eclipses all occuring on the 1st of Av (Jewish/Hebrew calendar) for the 3 consecutive years of 2008, 2009, 2010. Now, even just this Triple-Eclipse sequence is enough of a sign for me because this is just so very rare that it might not have ever occured ever before this, and not only this, but it just so happened to have begun in 2008, the year for God’s Final Witness, I mean what are the odds of that, lol ? But then, we also had the incredibly rare Triple-Eclipse sequence whereby there were 3 eclipses within a very short time-span of just only 30 days (Lunar 7/7/2009, Solar 7/22/2009, Lunar 8/6/2009), and this Summer 2009 Triple-Eclipse sequence just so happened to occur right smack-dabb in the very middle of the 2008-2009-2010 Triple-Eclipse sequence (Total Solar Eclipses on the 1st of Av for 3 consecutive years in a row). Now, the chances of this kind of thing occuring just only purely by chance is already astronomical, but for this also to also coincide with 2008 God’s Final Witness is just so very much so astounding to me.
Now, please don’t take this to mean that I will not use good discernment and judgement when it comes to true prophets and false prophets, but this does indeed leave the door open for not yet slamming it shut upon Mr. Weinland because what he says is so very much compelling in terms of this perfect timing.
Aaron Robinson
But Aaron, with all due respect, what you say may sound reasonable on the surface, but you contradict Ron Weinland and Herbert Armstrong both.
You have left me wondering whom should I believe?
Please allow me to elaborate.
First and foremost you say this:
“The first thing that I want to mention is that Mr. Armstrong was an apostle, but he was in no form a prophet.”
You understand an Apostle outranks a prophet. So there is more gravity if he is wrong.
Elijah was not merely a prophet, but he came to represent all prophets. Ron Weinland not only taught at one time that Herbert Armstrong was the end-time Elijah (a thing Herbert Armstrong and all the entire ministry and all the congregations of Worldwide wholeheartedly agreed with – and many still do), only to later teach that Herbert Armstrong was a ~type~ of Elijah.
How then can be be in any form a type of Elijah the prophet and yet be “in no form a prophet”? This is contradictory. They can not both be true.
To be in no form a prophet means that he was in no form an Elijah, and thus you make Ron Weinland now, in this day, to be mistaken. Whom should I believe?
Perhaps you were not there at the time, but this is what we were taught:
“…we were told, this one man (HWA) was far more important than any one or all of the original apostles, as he was only one while they were twelve or more. This man was not only “the” apostle, but also the modern Elijah, Zerubbabel, Moses, and the principal witness of Revelation, chapter 11!”
No man can be Elijah and the principal witness of Revelation 11, and be “in no way a prophet.” This is contradictory. Either you are correct, and all that we were told was vitally important for our entry into the Kingdom was false, or those men at that time were true and what you and Ron Weinland teach is false. Do you understand my reservations?
Perhaps more evidence will help. I will show you a second contradiction. You say this:
“…so anything concerning prophetic events that he would predict to come to pass would be merely speculation and not prophecying itself and not revelation from God.”
So you say his words were not revelation from God at all, but speculation only. But this is what Herbert Armstrong, the man you admit was an Apostle, said:
“You can read what God says to me in Ezekiel 33: 1-6.”
-Herbert Armstrong, “1975 In Prophecy”, p. 20
“…the TRUE MESSAGE FROM GOD … going out freely to the world at THIS time, on The WORLD TOMORROW program.”
-Herbert Armstrong, “1975 In Prophecy”, p. 24
“…and I say to you on authority of God Almighty that it is absolutely SURE!”
-Herbert Armstrong, “1975 In Prophecy”, p. 31
Sounds like incredibly definite statements regarding prophecy. “On authority of God Almighty”? Those were the Apostle’s own words. Do you not know that we were taught that our salvation utterly depended on how we accepted and acted in faith upon these “mere speculations”? Your words contradict him when you say it was not from God Almighty when the Apostle himself said it most certainly was. So I ask, whom should I believe?
And if you are right, whom from the Churches of God can anyone trust? They might claim that God is speaking through them, but may learn later that they were only speculating from their own minds.
I accuse no one, but I am naturally curious as to what your definition of a liar is? I would need to know, to compare that with what I see, and prove someone is telling the truth. May I politely inquire if, in your opinion, you would say Deuteronomy 18 applies to this situation?
And now I would quote Rod Merideth speaking officially in the Plain Truth Magazine, December 1956, page 3:
“But who today understands what the prophets foretold? Why, only the ministers today whose word comes to pass!-those who are appointed and guided by God to preach the truth! Those whose utterances do not come to pass have not spoken the prophecies truly. We give you here the record of what we have been proclaiming for the past 2 years-a message which no other voices, to our knowledge, have been proclaiming…. But what we have been warning you about is happening!-precisely as we have stated…. This is how you can know that our work is not of men but of God!”
So, these men understood prophecy, but were not prophets? They made predictions that were sure, and “guided by God”, and “on authority of God Almighty”, but were not prophets, rather men speculating? By their own definition a person can know that these men spoke the prophecies truly for God if their word comes to pass [itself a prophecy], and they did not come to pass. Yet HWA, who prophesied, was supposedly not a prophet, but an Apostle only? An Apostle who didn’t meet his own defined standard?
How can a man in every possible way act like a prophet, but in no way be a prophet? I wonder how can a man possibly define a standard for truth, then fail to meet it, and still qualify as an Apostle? I wonder, and I mean this seriously and not as a slight, if you are indicating to me that you believe Herbert Armstrong lied?
But may be not. Perhaps you would say to me, “This is just Rod Merideth speaking, and he was out of line.” I would disagree, because if that were so, it would have been edited out, or recanted soon afterwards, or Rod would have been corrected. That never happened. But what’s more, I would give you one more quote, directly from the mouth of Herbert Armstrong, to show you it was not just Rod Merideth:
“I want to tell you that all this weather disturbance means a terrible famine is coming on the United States that is going to ruin us as a nation inside of less than 20 more years. Alright, I stuck my neck out right there. You just wait 20 more years and see whether I told you the truth. God says, if a man tells you what’s going to happen, wait and see. If it does not happen, he was not speaking the word of God; he was speaking out of his own mind. You watch and see whether these things happen. You’ll see who’s speaking to you, my friends.”
-Herbert Armstrong. (From an audio recording made some time around 1956.)
Do you see how this might cause some confusion in my mind about what you are telling me? Herbert Armstrong made a prophecy, clearly alluded to Deuteronmy 18: 22 – a verse about prophets – as proof of his legitimacy as a prophet, and even admitted that he stuck his neck out in making that prophecy – yet what he said was truth did not come to pass. So would you think I am unreasonable in saying that one or more of the three of you, Herbert Armstrong and Ron Weinland, are not being entirely forthcoming with me?
muzicsoulworldly,
I watched a documentary this morning that featured several cults. The most dangerous of all were the ones which focused on end-time events and led by men who claimed to be prophets or some spiritual persona mentioned in the Bible. Many of the people who followed these men came to a tragic end. There are many cults out there which are not physically but spiritually dangerous, which can be just as tragic.
One of the things I noticed these groups had in common was they seemed to draw people who are looking for spiritual experiences and/or additional revelation from God, i.e., they’re looking for a modern day prophet. People who are from or have a Seventh Day Adventist mind-set are particularly vulnerable because they’re taught to be looking for this. This was something brought up in the documentary.
Another thing I noticed is these people, who appeared very sincere in their beliefs, were willing to depart from God’s written word, if need be, in favor of these prophets/teachers who claimed to be speaking for God. They had experienced things that made them believe they understood scripture more clearly than they ever had, that gave them a desire for God they hadn’t previously felt – and since these experiences either came as a result of listening to these prophets/teachers, or were heightened by it; they put their faith in these feelings and that prophet.
I talk to a lot of people about their beliefs, and whenever I ask them what they are basing them on I make it clear I’m looking for biblical support; not just what they think, not what they feel, not what this or that church/leader/prophet/teacher says. I trust only in God and His written word, so everything I believe must line up with that; including and especially anything said by someone claiming to speak for God.
I don’t put my trust in someone else’s human wisdom or spiritual discernment; God has given me a heart, a mind and a will of my own and I’m responsible to use them and test everything as He has commanded me.
Those who trust in things said outside the Bible and that do not line up with it are extremely vulnerable to deception. Please understand that if I question things that you present as truth that are not found in the Bible, it’s not because I’m questioning your sincerity, or even your motive, because only God knows your mind and heart.
Hi angel
I refer to your last post on the subject of ‘cults’ where you say:
“I talk to a lot of people about their beliefs, and whenever I ask them what they are basing them on I make it clear I’m looking for biblical support; not just what they think, not what they feel, not what this or that church/leader/prophet/teacher says. I trust only in God and His written word, so everything I believe must line up with that; including and especially anything said by someone claiming to speak for God.”
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Based on your remark above, can you please clarify your thoughts on each of the following:
1) If you agree that all of God’s Ten Commandments are valid in the Christian Church, including the 4th Commandment to observe God’s 7th day Sabbath, in the same way Jesus Christ observed His Father’s Sabbath.
2) If you agree that nowhere in the written word of God is His special Sabbath Day changed to Sunday.
3) If you agree that Jesus Christ kept His Father’s Holy Days so the Christian Church needs to follow their Lord and observe God’s Holy Days (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost,Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles).
4) If you agree that Christmas and Easter originate from pagan festivals and are not God’s Holy Days and so should be avoided by the Christian church.
Mal,
We’ve been over all that; you know what I think. If we hadn’t already discussed all those things I’d go thru it with you, but I’ve explained why I believe my views on those issues line up with scripture.
I listen to many different teachers because I think it’s dangerous to listen to just one; I don’t want to base my understanding of scripture on any one teacher’s views, I don’t want to quote some teacher’s doctrines, and I don’t want to put my trust in some teacher’s beliefs. Paul said we shouldn’t do that. I don’t want to base it on any one church organizations teachings, either, nor do I like the idea of identifying myself as a member of any one organization; I’m a follower of Jesus Christ, and a member of the Body of Christ.
When I watched that documentary, and saw what happens when people put their trust in one teacher that claims to be speaking for God and is the only one that has the truth, I thought, “This is why Paul said not to listen to only one teacher, and why God said a prophet must be tested.” Those people had to blind themselves and stop up their ears to keep from seeing and hearing who these men really were that they were putting their souls on the line for.
I find it very interesting how the key events/dates that the timing hinges on with these timelines seems to be ones that that particular prophet/group has an issue with; in this case, it was Joseph Tkach’s announcement that caused him to be seen as the “son of perdition”, and Christmas, that became the key events/dates. In another group, the guy was asked by the church he was part of at the time not to teach his end-time views so he left; that became the date ALL churches were taken over by Satan, and the event/date that started his countdown to Jesus’ return.
In these two examples these events/dates that were “revealed to them by God”, together with the other time frames these date setters are all using, are amazing and boggling the minds of those who believe the odds these timelines could just be a coincidence is too unbelievable. Keep in mind these two timelines are using different events/dates and coming up with different dates for Jesus’ return.
When a teacher says God revealed a future event or its timing to him, that teacher is prophesying, regardless of what he calls himself. The prophecy must be tested to see if it is from God, and if it does not come to pass, we know it was not. This teacher then, not only didn’t hear from God, but he is seriously lacking in spiritual discernment and wisdom. If this teacher doesn’t repent, and false teachers/prophets rarely do; he faces the consequences of Deut. 18:20. I believe it’s wise to heed God’s warning and have nothing to do with such a man.
Angel on 1/25/2010 @ 2:02 AM,
But Angel, aren’t you using your very own discernment when you say that no man will ever know the day or the hour, especially when the Bible doesn’t even say any such thing at all whatsoever ? You use your own discernment and actually change the wording of what the Bible says because Jesus Christ never told his disciples that no man will ever know the timing, he simply stated that no one knows. So thus, why are you changing the present tense into the future tense ? I mean Amos 3:7 essentially disproves the theory that no man will ever know the timing because God states to us that he surely does nothing without first revealing those secrets to His servants. Now, if you still stand by what you say that no man will ever be able to know the timing, then you are saying that Amos 3:7 is not from God. I have addressed my thoughts about those verses in Deuteronomy, so I would like for you to explain why you feel the way that you do regarding what Jesus Christ told to his disciples, especially since you are changing the very meaning that Christ spoke by changing the tenses of how he was speaking to them.
Aaron Robinson
xHWA on 1/25/2010 @ 10:40 AM,
I’m glad that you raised this question, and I will begin by saying that Elijah was to come in the spirit of Elijah, not to come in the same prophethood or apostlehood as Elijah. The Scriptures do not tell us that Elijah would be coming as a prophet, but just that he was to be coming in the spirit of Elijah. The spirit of Elijah came from God’s Holy Spirit, which is the same no matter whether he’s an apostle or a prophet. Now, even though the spirit is the same, the jobs are still different. Apostles only either teach existing doctrine or give new doctrine, and prophets either give deeper spiritual understanding and meaning to existing prophecy or they give new prophecy that doesn’t already exist.
Those lines regarding being the apostle, the modern Elijah, Zerubbabel, Moses, and the principal witness of Revelation 11… Could you show me where that quote was from ? I cannot even tell whether or not that was spoken by Mr. Weinland or somebody in the Worldwide Church Of God during the Philadelphia church-era.
In regards to what you regarding things that Mr. Armstrong said, I am still learning what Mr. Armstrong taught and spoke of, but there is just so much history there that I cannot possibly learn all of it before everything happens. I do admit that there is a kind of dichotomy since Mr. Armstrong did state that certain things were going to be occuring, but yet nobody was calling him a prophet. I’m still reading the Bible to see how all of the apostles and prophets operated since the establishment of God’s Church in the year of 31 A.D. The Bible is so very long that it’s taking me quite a long while to read all of it. So thus, I cannot fully answer your questions right now, but I’m continuing to read the Bible and I will be praying to God to show me the truth of what you were asking me, regardless of what that truth turns-out to be, I just want the truth. The actual doctrines that Mr. Armstrong taught to God’s Church make totall sense to me, and makes the Scriptures come alive for me like never ever before this.
Maybe God was making a point by allowing His Church to believe that Christ’s return was imminent because the Bible even commands of us that we conduct ourselves as if the day of Christ is always at hand, so that’z just something to think about. I cannot say how it really truly happened, but maybe God was wanting to show His Church that they are to have an urgency regarding the times that they live in. Which might have been why Mr. Armstrong was an apostle and not a prophet because God would have wanted to give the message that Mr. Armstrong’s biggest authority was that of being an apostle, a teacher of doctrine, and that even though he would be saying that certain events would take place during those times, that he was still only an apostle. I mean, I don’t know, this is just in my very own thinking though.
I will say this though, if the 2nd Trumpet blows with nuclear detonations in port cities, and then the 3rd Trumpet blows with nuclear detonation in land cities, and then a federation of 10 European nations arises to become a super-power in the World, and then eventually the 2 biggest voices in the World of churches are the Church Of God – PKG and the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, with all of those things, would you believe the Roman Catholic Church over the Church Of God – PKG ? If what Mr. Weinland said does indeed come to pass over the next year or so, and there are only 2 voices on the World scene declaring the other to be false, which one will you believe ? Or would you believe that neither of them are God’s Church and that God’s Church will not be growing in recognition before the returning of Jesus Christ to this Earth ?
This year of 2010 could be one of the very most powerfull years that mankind has ever experienced thus so far, and only time will be able to tell us this.
Aaron Robinson
muzicsoulworldly,
Jesus didn’t say no man would “ever” know the day or the hour, and I think I’ve stipulated that scripture doesn’t definitively say “how” understanding of end times will come or whether or not it will come through a prophet.
I couldn’t find the post where I talked about this so I could see how I worded it; if it came across like I was saying Jesus said no one would “ever” know the day and hour I certainly didn’t mean it to. What I would have meant to say is that if someone claimed to know the day and was wrong, they would have contradicted what Jesus said. Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear.
I believe Amos 3:7 should be understood in the context of God pronouncing judgment against several nations; in chapter 3 He’s addressing Israel. In chapter 2 God said He raised up some of her sons as prophets, but they commanded them not to prophesy. In the verses previous to verse 7 He presents rhetorical questions, so I think that in verse 7 He’s telling them, in essence, that He wouldn’t bring judgment without telling them first. To understand the word “nothing” as meaning He tells his prophets everything about everything, including end-times, doesn’t seem to fit the context.
I hope I clarified any misunderstanding on what Jesus said concerning the day and the hour.
Angel on 1/25/2010 @ 12:00 PM,
I very much totally believe you when you say that you aren’t questioning my sincerity or motive, I do very much believe what you are saying regarding that. Let me just ask you something though, which is that if God’s Church really truly does come along, and everything lines-up with the Bible, don’t you think that that church would still be lumped into that same category as radically wild and fanatical Christian doom-sayers ? Regardless of whether or not the Church Of God – PKG is God’s Church, God’s Church will still be persecuted and mocked and ridiculed no matter which church turns-out to be God’s Church, wouldn’t you think ? Now, obviously this is not the only think which determines where God is working, but if that documentary was made by men that might not even believe in God in the very first place, or have strong beliefs in their own denominational church, beliefs which go against the Scriptures, then how much are you gonna read-into that documentary that portrays ALL of the churches (that speak of the End-Time) in the very same light ? What about for God’s real true church, wouldn’t television be painting the same kind of picture about God’s true church ?
I understand what you mean about people wanting to feel like they are gaining understand of the Bible through a prophet and they want things to feel important and to have something to hold onto, and yes, many many people are looking for things like that, but let me just assure you that my heart is with God. Now, I just so happen to believe that Mr. Weinland is one of God’s prophets, and I don’t believe that what he has said goes against Scriptures, and no, not even those verses in Deuteronomy 18. I wrote quite a bit about this just a lil’ while ago today in a comment, so if you haven’t read it yet, then please read it before you go responding this this paragraph, because I explained my position on Deuteronomy 18 in somewhat of a different manner than I did from before.
I will admit that many many people will continue to follow Mr. Weinland even if his prophecies once yet again do not come to pass by 2011, and even if not by Pentecost 2012. But I, for one, will not waste anytime, because if nothing happens by the year of 2011, I will be deeming Mr. Weinland to be a false prophet, and yes, this will set me back somewhat spiritually, but on the same exact token, I have learned alot from this, and have learned alot from the Scriptures, such as like no where in the Bible does it say that we are to no longer be keeping God’s Laws or Commandments, I will be holding onto those things regardless of what Mr. Weinland does or says in the future. I will have to be asking God why He led me astray when I had prayed to Him very earnestly, sincerely, and genuinely that I want to be guided to the truth, regardless of what that truth so happens to be, and even if that would shatter everything that I ever thought that I knew regarding mankind and the World.
I’m not at all whatsoever saying this to be mean, but just as I have stated in my previous comment-postings, you do not 100% adhere to the Scriptures, because for one thing, you have twisted the words of Jesus Christ to his disciples by saying that no man will ever know the timing, they can never know the timing, when that is not what Jesus Christ told to his disciples. What he told them is that “nobody knows”, which was in the present-tense for the time that he made this statement to his disciples. Had he stated that no man will ever know the day or the hour, not the angels in Heaven, nor either the Son Of Man, had he stated this, then he would have contradicted God from Amos 3:7 which states that God surely does nothing before first revealing His secrets to His servants. If God would have to be revealing the secret of the timing before the timing actually occured, then how could no man EVER know the timing of those things ? Well, simply because that is not even what Jesus Christ had said. That is just one example where it doesn’t seem like you are following 100% from what the Scriptures say. Also, in Deuteronomy 18, you have changed the verse “the thing which God has not spoken, and they have spoken presumptuously” into “the thing which God has not spoken, they have spoken presumptuously.” Even with this though, in your very translation of this verse, you put a semi-colon which means AND and not THEN or THUS or SO, but then you tell us that God is defining through this verse what it means to be presumptuous, but the whole meaning was changed when you didn’t include the “and” in between the 2 statements within that verse, and that does make all of the difference in the World, which is why this is so very important and why this is not just nitt-picking minor things.
Now, just because so very many people have followed false prophets in the past because of what was spoken of by the said prophets, this doesn’t mean that this won’t occur in the very same manner when God’s real prophets come about. Ths is much just as like you saying that there have been failed prophecies for 2,000 years, and there will always be another and another prophet with failed prophecies, like they will always fail. This is a dangerous way to be thinking because then you will discount anybody and everybody without spiritually examining things, like for whether or not somebody was speaking presumptuously because they were having 100% faith in what God’s Church had very long believed, which is the opposite of being presumptuous, because he wasn’t presuming anything different than what God’s Church had believed up to that very point in time, and Deuteronomy 18 is not defining the word presumptuous, it is stating that if the thing which was spoken does not come to pass AND he spoke it presumptuously, then you shall not be afraid of him. This is how so very important it is to really examine the verses of the Bible and not just read over them to get proof that somebody is false, because if that is the reasoning behind reading and stating those verses, then God might cloud the spiritual part of your mind so that you cannot understand what you need to understand.
I do very much understand that some people are following Mr. Weinland more than they are following God, and they are being radical and fanatical with it. But I, for one, will not hesitate to stop believing Mr. Weinland if something seems out-of-place for me, if Mr. Weinland changes any of the time-frame to extend the final date, and if nothing occurs over the course of a year or so, then I will not hesitate in declaring Mr. Ronald Weinland a false prophet. I mean, even if everything that Mr. Weinland stated does indeed come to pass, you will still deem him to still be a false prophet, even if only God’s Church and the Roman Catholic Church are the only 2 religious voices in the World sparring against each one another. I mean, I’m guessing that you would have to choose neither one and just not be guided by any church, which would mean that God’s Church wouldn’t be becoming more and more greater in recognition upon the Earth, even as it becomes very very clear that the United States Of America has fully and totally collapsed as an independent sovereign nation. I’m just wondering what you might choose to decide to do if this situarion does indeed present itself to you.
Aaron Robinson
Angel on 1/25/2010 @ 10:10 PM,
Would yo be able to direct me where Paul says this about listening to multiple teachers ? I’m not saying that Paul didn’t talk about this, but I just want to be able to read this for myself.
You said that you are a member of the body of Christ. Which church were you baptised into in order to have become a member of the body of Christ ?
I wasn’t sure whom you meant when you said, “In another group, the guy was asked by the church he was a part of at the time not to teach his End-Time views so he left.” Which guy from which church are you referring to ? Also, what date are you referring to when you said that all churches were taken over by Satan, and how does this relate to the guy leaving on account of being told not to be teaching his End-Time views ?
Just so that you know, and am not just believing Mr. Weinland because the timings are too extraordinary to just be a mere coincidence, that is not me, because I was believing him, and yes, testing his prophethood, before I even realized that he gave a 2nd time-frame.
Now, you said that as long as a teach says that God revealed a future event or its timing to him that the teacher is prophecying, regardless of what he calls himself. Now, you have said in other comment-postings that God’s prophets are declared by others to be prophets, so why didn’t others claim Mr. Armstrong to be a prophet from God ? If Mr. Armstrong was indeed prophecying, then shouldn’t other people have been claiming that he was a prophet ? Not even the people within God’s Church were saying that he was a prophet, I mean don’t you find this just a lil’ bit strange if the people were believing what Mr. Armstrong was saying about those future events ?
Also, regarding Deuteronomy 18, what do you make of God saying that a prophet that speaks a word in His name that speaks presumptuously shall die ? I’m asking you this because neither Mr. Weinland, nor Vincent Xavier (whom claimed that October 2009 would be seeing the nuclear detonation of Washington, D.C.), nor many many other false prophets, have died. I’m actually wondering this myself though also because I’m wondering why haven’t they died, and I mean, why did God allow Mr. Armstrong to live until 93 years of age if he was falsely prophecying ? Why have so many of those prophets lived for many many many years following their failed prophecies ?
Also, you said that you believe it’s wise to heed God’s warning and have nothing to do with such a man, but you told us that you do indeed listen to Mr. Weinland the very most because aside from his prophecies, you agree with most of his teachings, more so than any other teacher. So my question for you is why would you be following such a man if you believe that it would be wise to heed God’s warning in Deuteronomy 18 and have nothing to do with such a man whose prophecies had failed to come to pass just as he had stated ?
Aaron Robinson
You said that you wanted to see what you had written, so I am just showing you since you wanted to see your full context of it:
1/24/2010 @ 2:11 AM from “The Presumptuousness Vs. Assumptuousness Of God’s prophets”
“In the NT, John, who wrote the last book, tells us Jesus said nothing is to be added or taken away from the words of the prophecy of this book (Revelation). Jesus had previously told His disciples no one knows the time (that end-time events would begin), so for someone to claim that they have additional information from God about the end-time events John described that has not been previously revealed, as well as the date – contradicts what Jesus said. ”
This was saying that for somebdy to claim that they have information from God regarding End-Time events that John wrote about which has not been previously revealed and also regarding the date, that this contradicts what Jesus Christ had said. Your context said nothing regarding if somebody claimed to know the timing and was wrong about what they had claimed, it just was saying that they shouldn’t even be making the claim in the very first place since it would be contradicting when Christ told his disciples that no man knows the day or the hour of the timing. You have stated this exactly this way a few times in the past, so it doesn’t seem like you had mis-spoken, because ever time I read what you said regarding this from before, you sounded as if they shouldn’t even be claiming to know the timing in the very first place, regardless of whether or not they turned-out to be right or wrong further on down the line/road.
Let me know what you think about what I wrote just now, and also, I wrote alot of what I wrote in my postings for you, so I hope that you will read them and response to them, even though they speak of what we have spoken of in the past, but I explained it a lil’ bit differently so I request that you read it at least since I took the time to write it for you, and I touched upon several subject-matters.
By the way, just so you know, please try not to feel that I’m heating-up towards you or attacking you or your beliefs, because I promise you that I’m not doing that. I’m just trying to explain why I believe what I believe and that it is so very much more than just about the timing of those things, although if the time-frame changed once more yet again, then I would have to deem him to be a false prophet, no questions even asked from me.
I don’t want to accuse you of changing what you have said in the past, but you did write this more than once in the past regarding contradicting what Jesus Christ had said simply by claiming to know the timing, and there was no question of claiming it and then being right about it or being wrong about it, it was just simply about claiming it.
Love you Angel,
Aaron Robinson
angel
Since you chose not to directly answer the four points in my last post to you, I will put the points again slightly differently.
It is very simple to give a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer to these points.
Sorry to press you on this, but I am doing so because many times on this forum over the past several months you have looked down on certain churches as ‘cults’, including Church of God PKG, and continually made the point that you follow God and His written Word alone.
1) Do you agree that God specified in His Word a number of days to be kept Holy (7th day Sabbath, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles) and that Jesus Christ our Lord kept these days ? YES/NO
2) Do you support the mainstream Christian churches in keeping NONE of the days God said to keep Holy, but instead coming before God on days of their own choosing, which are in fact ALL PAGAN in origin (SUNday, Dec 25th and Easter/Ishtar) ? YES/NO
3) Do you agree that Church of God PKG is right to say we need to keep God’s Holy Days and avoid the pagan days ? YES/NO